quick flex hone question
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From: schooling kids in ny, usa
quick flex hone question
should you hone with the drill on forward and then hit the same cylinder with the drill on reverse or just up and down in one direction?
ive had a bit of trouble achieving full ring seal on my build with a spot on tune and im just trying to go over my proceedures to pinpoint the issue. (which I think is just using. too fine a grit but I wont rule everything out yet)
ive had a bit of trouble achieving full ring seal on my build with a spot on tune and im just trying to go over my proceedures to pinpoint the issue. (which I think is just using. too fine a grit but I wont rule everything out yet)
Hysterically Calm
Joined: Jan 2013
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Re: quick flex hone question
How did you do the break in on the new rings? Was everything else to spec? Did you do a torque plate bore? Did you remeasure after your hone to be sure everything was in spec?
There is lots of details missing here that all could play a role.
There is lots of details missing here that all could play a role.
Thread Starter
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: schooling kids in ny, usa
Re: quick flex hone question
it was originally honed at the machine shop, tq plate used. it sat for a bit longer than i wanted and i had a tiny bit of surface rust but no where near pitted so i ran the 600 grit flexhone through it a few times. rings were broken in under load. no vtec for the first 100 miles then i turned it on and went up 7000-8000 rpm. 8-10 psi (its a benson sleeved block with cp's and eagles) afr in the high 11s and no knock on the knocksense. initial startup was with non detergent 30wt then i ran 10w-40 through it changing oil at 100 and then 500 miles.
DO IT ON ALL FOURS
Joined: Sep 2007
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From: IN Your Mind
Re: quick flex hone question
I have always done it one direction only. Usually you need to stroke it rather fast to achieve proper cross hatching. With that being said, not all ring manufacturers use the same final grit. Some are in the 200 - 300's and up to usually 600's in my experience. You could have messed up the grit required for the finish hone. Then again, I am no machinist either. 
PS - Benson sleeves are pretty hard, it takes a TON of honing to remove material depending on the grit used.
PS - Benson sleeves are pretty hard, it takes a TON of honing to remove material depending on the grit used.
Hysterically Calm
Joined: Jan 2013
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Re: quick flex hone question
Your break in is contrary to what I've read to do.
With engine braking involved, after initial warm up, 40%-60%-40% rpm range 3 times followed by 40%-80%-40% rpm range 3 times, followed by 30%-100%-30% rpm range allowing the motor to slow the rpm's down every time. After this, you change the oil and filter and drive normally for the next 1200 miles or so and break in is considered done after that.
Originally Posted by motoman
On a Dyno:
Warm the engine up
completely !!
Then, using 4th gear:
Do Three 1/2 Throttle dyno runs from
40% - 60% of your engine's max rpm
Let it Cool Down For About 15 Minutes
Do Three 3/4 Throttle dyno runs from
40% - 80% of your engine's max rpm
Let it Cool Down For About 15 Minutes
Do Three Full Throttle dyno runs from
30% - 100% of your engine's max rpm
Let it Cool Down For About 15 Minutes
Go For It !!
Because of the wind resistance, you don't need to use higher gears like you would on a dyno machine. The main thing is to load the engine by opening the throttle hard in 2nd, 3rd and 4th gear.
Realistically, you won't be able to do full throttle runs even in 2nd gear on most bikes without exceeding 65 mph / 104 kph. The best method is to alternate between short bursts of hard acceleration and deceleration. You don't have to go over 65 mph / 104 kph to properly load the rings. Also, make sure that you're not being followed by another bike or car when you decelerate, most drivers won't expect that you'll suddenly slow down, and we don't want
anyone to get hit from behind !!
The biggest problem with breaking your engine in on the street (besides police) is if you ride the bike on the freeway (too little throttle = not enough pressure on the rings) or if you get stuck in slow city traffic. For the first 200 miles or so, get out into the country where you can vary the speed more
and run it through the gears !
Warm the engine up
completely !!
Then, using 4th gear:
Do Three 1/2 Throttle dyno runs from
40% - 60% of your engine's max rpm
Let it Cool Down For About 15 Minutes
Do Three 3/4 Throttle dyno runs from
40% - 80% of your engine's max rpm
Let it Cool Down For About 15 Minutes
Do Three Full Throttle dyno runs from
30% - 100% of your engine's max rpm
Let it Cool Down For About 15 Minutes
Go For It !!
Because of the wind resistance, you don't need to use higher gears like you would on a dyno machine. The main thing is to load the engine by opening the throttle hard in 2nd, 3rd and 4th gear.
Realistically, you won't be able to do full throttle runs even in 2nd gear on most bikes without exceeding 65 mph / 104 kph. The best method is to alternate between short bursts of hard acceleration and deceleration. You don't have to go over 65 mph / 104 kph to properly load the rings. Also, make sure that you're not being followed by another bike or car when you decelerate, most drivers won't expect that you'll suddenly slow down, and we don't want
anyone to get hit from behind !!
The biggest problem with breaking your engine in on the street (besides police) is if you ride the bike on the freeway (too little throttle = not enough pressure on the rings) or if you get stuck in slow city traffic. For the first 200 miles or so, get out into the country where you can vary the speed more
and run it through the gears !
And bike to car makes no difference as they both are 4 cycle motors with at least 1 piston if not 2 or more depending. Same principles apply.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,167
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From: Atlanta
Re: quick flex hone question
I think the 600 grit flex hone may have reduced the sealing of the rings. Need some degree of roughness to wear the rings completely.
I attempted a ring/hone job on a friend's civic once. Now I no longer attempt to do any kind of engine machining operations beyond port matching lol.
I attempted a ring/hone job on a friend's civic once. Now I no longer attempt to do any kind of engine machining operations beyond port matching lol.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,167
Likes: 2
From: Atlanta
Re: quick flex hone question
I think the sooner you can safely apply moderately heavy load on the engine (the rings) the better. After operating temp has been reached of course. The rings aren't pushing hard enough to seat in quickly and properly at low loads and idle.
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From: Oahu
Re: quick flex hone question
If you read wiseco's automotive parts catalog it talks about honing.
http://www.wiseco.com/Catalogs/Sport...eteCatalog.pdf
pg. 110-111
Now like sum1 mentioned diff. Co. will req. diff. Ra's and final hones, but the other info in it is across the board engine knowledge that can be used to maybe pinpoint your problem.
Ask yourself this. was it one bore that had surface rust or all of them? did you treat every bore with the 600 grit, rust or not? Were they all leaking or smoking? Do the rings look effed up?
I probably would of tried some WD-40 and a green pad to massage the rust out first before jumping to honing, I kno its in the past now but food for thought. Next time soak in WD-40 and plastic wrap it.
Tomcat 39 had some good questions.
GL! wish I could help more.
http://www.wiseco.com/Catalogs/Sport...eteCatalog.pdf
pg. 110-111
Now like sum1 mentioned diff. Co. will req. diff. Ra's and final hones, but the other info in it is across the board engine knowledge that can be used to maybe pinpoint your problem.
Ask yourself this. was it one bore that had surface rust or all of them? did you treat every bore with the 600 grit, rust or not? Were they all leaking or smoking? Do the rings look effed up?
I probably would of tried some WD-40 and a green pad to massage the rust out first before jumping to honing, I kno its in the past now but food for thought. Next time soak in WD-40 and plastic wrap it.
Tomcat 39 had some good questions.
GL! wish I could help more.
Thread Starter
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,820
Likes: 12
From: schooling kids in ny, usa
Re: quick flex hone question
all cylinders got the 600 grit and i do the same amount of up and down strokes per cylinder. all about equality now adays right.
i think the oem honda rings recommend 400-600grit final hone. i just checked with hastings though and they seem to recommend 280. way to go me.
i had the vtec set way up like 6500 and the low cam limit was at 6000. i was making pulls to that under boost at least 80%tps on the first ride out within a few minutes of my house keeping an eye on my gauges ( these are on empty roads i dont do any of this with traffic around ill pull over and wait for the road to clear)i always run it for 15 minutes in the garage up around 2000 rpm to open the tstat, bleed the coolant, make sure the fan comes on and it wont overheat, set the dist with the timing gun, and till i see at least 180 oil temp. i usually have a friend watching for leaks when im in the car with the laptop. then its oil change time. ill let it cool all the way down then go out for a ride maybe 20 miles to do a handful of hits under load watching the egt to really make sure it heat cycles well....
i think the oem honda rings recommend 400-600grit final hone. i just checked with hastings though and they seem to recommend 280. way to go me.
i had the vtec set way up like 6500 and the low cam limit was at 6000. i was making pulls to that under boost at least 80%tps on the first ride out within a few minutes of my house keeping an eye on my gauges ( these are on empty roads i dont do any of this with traffic around ill pull over and wait for the road to clear)i always run it for 15 minutes in the garage up around 2000 rpm to open the tstat, bleed the coolant, make sure the fan comes on and it wont overheat, set the dist with the timing gun, and till i see at least 180 oil temp. i usually have a friend watching for leaks when im in the car with the laptop. then its oil change time. ill let it cool all the way down then go out for a ride maybe 20 miles to do a handful of hits under load watching the egt to really make sure it heat cycles well....
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Joined: Mar 2014
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From: Oahu
Re: quick flex hone question
I look at it more like Variables, If I do this then I create other possibilities that can arise. Keep variables to a minimum for everything.
As long as the shop did its initial hone correctly running that final 600 grit I think might have just extended your break in time.
I kno. everyone says first 20 miles or 5 minutes is crucial to seal, but I think its overlooked that its crucial for its OVERALL potential not the entire seal which I think is important and I also used this practice as well. The initial practice of loading the rings up is the difference between 90% and maybe 80-75% it does not make or break it tho as long as its properly tuned and spec'd.
I have 3.5k on mine with Wiseco's (P2W 0.0035"), @ 3k I tried switching over to Torcos SR-1 which is its synthetic racing oil and I felt like it started consuming a lil, So I went back to Torco's TR-1 which is its (still almost $10 a quart conventional racing oil) and back to not using a drop.
I still have 275 psi in all cyl. across board, no smoking, no sealing issue's even with the SR-1 @ the time. But it was a variable that I did not want to exist. Maybe she just likes the Convent. for right now, ill try again later down the road maybe and take note.
Wish I knew more.
wish you would of taken a bunch of psi checks during the entire process Just to measure what was going on better. For all of our knowledge sake. Tell us more! Lol.
As long as the shop did its initial hone correctly running that final 600 grit I think might have just extended your break in time.
I kno. everyone says first 20 miles or 5 minutes is crucial to seal, but I think its overlooked that its crucial for its OVERALL potential not the entire seal which I think is important and I also used this practice as well. The initial practice of loading the rings up is the difference between 90% and maybe 80-75% it does not make or break it tho as long as its properly tuned and spec'd.
I have 3.5k on mine with Wiseco's (P2W 0.0035"), @ 3k I tried switching over to Torcos SR-1 which is its synthetic racing oil and I felt like it started consuming a lil, So I went back to Torco's TR-1 which is its (still almost $10 a quart conventional racing oil) and back to not using a drop.
I still have 275 psi in all cyl. across board, no smoking, no sealing issue's even with the SR-1 @ the time. But it was a variable that I did not want to exist. Maybe she just likes the Convent. for right now, ill try again later down the road maybe and take note.
Wish I knew more.
wish you would of taken a bunch of psi checks during the entire process Just to measure what was going on better. For all of our knowledge sake. Tell us more! Lol.
Hysterically Calm
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 10,439
Likes: 597
Re: quick flex hone question
If it's still early after your initial break, it could be like the poster above me indicated, still needing the remaining mileage to finalize the break in.
Sounds to me like the initial was done well, so now it's just the remaining 1200 miles or so. If you still have probs after that, then be concerned and look at the grit of the hone.
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