Has anyone ever heard of a CERAMIC ball bearing turbo that only uses oil as cooling/lubricant (that means no coolant connection what so ever)? Just wondering.......

 

Yes they exist. Even airfoil bearing turbochargers exist. It's just not something commonly seen in the automotive world.

 

Precisions ball bearing system is ceramic right? Havent seen too many people running em.

 

I'm thinking of ordering a turbonetics one to try out. That uses a ceramic bearing cartridge and only oil. This is a part direct from turbonetics so its not a knock off. Its just kinda a interesting question, Has anyone had success with a setup of any company's that offer this?

 

Both precision and turbonetics use ceramic ball bearing oil cooled systems.

They have mixed longevity, but there is huge responsibility on the side of the user to watch their behavior when maintaining that turbo

 

Oh yea that is a very good point!!! I smoked a journal bearing turbo that was only oil coiled because of a contracted oil feed line. Smoked the bearing within a few miles when it went completely closed. Considering a oil pressure sensor at the turbo oil inlet that will alert if low oil psi is detected.

 

Having a gauge at the line itself doesn't really help with anything. Getting a fresh oil feed line, the correct oil regulator (aka "restrictor") of the right size and opening will do more than putting your gauge on the inlet itself.

Your turbo destroyed itself because you used a sub-standard line and possibly the wrong oil restrictor. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

turbonetics just releashed their tnx turbo series. dual ceramic ball bearings

 

The TNX line is a line that is geared to compete directly with Garrett and their smaller GTX28 series to GTX30 series turbochargers. For many years, Turbonetics has mainly marketed themselves as a performance turbocharger company that dealt with extremely large applications that used in the Drag racing, Performance boating, and and diesel markets where larger turbochargers were the most in-demand for over 36 years (Turbonetics was founded in 1978);

Their purpose (along with some Precision Turbo & Engine, Forced Performance, Turbochargers.com, and other 3rd Party mass companies) was to make available to the public applications and hybrids that you, the consumer, could not just put together unless you had the right resources and equipment, which is still not easy to get to today.

At the time, they concentrated themselves on making ever larger units that create anywhere from 1200-3000whp!! From their standard T3/T04E series to the THUMPER series that used 110mm inducers as their smallest sized application, their mission was to corner the drag racing performance market. with the introduction of the CNC 5 axis machines being more affordable and available, they continued this trend over the last 7-9 years.

Now, with factory turbocharged vehicles making a huge comeback (especially in North America), it is no longer sufficient to simply make a larger turbocharger for this particular group of enthusiasts. Now, a turbocharger's challenge is to fulfill several roles: To provide additional power more than the factory unit is able to provide, but now, it must still address fuel economy concerns and more importantly, be in a compact package that doesn't require as much modification to the engine bay layout as their larger units.

This is something that is different than what the Retro-fit market is worried about (meaning the Honda crowd outside of the K23 Turbo and new CTR turbo) where compact size may be somewhat important, but there are work-arounds for the fabricator if it doesn't fit quite right. This is where the introduction of smaller compressor/exhaust wheel packages has started to really gain popularity, and the TNX's job is to fulfill that void in which it shares itself with Borg-warner and Garrett.

The introduction of the TNX's twin sealing ring system nor the ceramic ball-bearing system that the TNX line is promoting is nothing new to turbocharging. Having piston sealing rings on both compressor and exhaust sides has been common for Garrett Steel Dual-Ball-bearing systems using dynamic seals, and those using a 360 degree thrust bearing in the journal bearing series. The same goes for the Borg-Warner 3K series, Switzer series, and EFR series. An example is shown below:



Many of the Mitsubishi turbochargers, which don't have a ball-bearing CHRA option also uses this system, which is important in high rotational speed applications associated with smaller turbochargers, due to the oil pressures found from the oil splay configuration of the turbo itself.

Radial Shaft Seals (aka Oil Sealing Ring or "seals") Composition



Example of a Honeywell Turbo Technologies Ceramic-Hybrid (Silicon Nitride) Ball-bearing cage system


Ceramic ball-bearings have developed over the years to now have similar characteristics as steel-ball bearings. Each type has advantages and disadvantages when it comes to their use in turbocharging.

 

garret gtw series switch to ceramic ball bearings also right.

care to explain the pros and cons between ceramic vs. steel. prolly could just look it up but i figured it would be more acurate coming from you.

ive never had any type of ball bearing turbo before. i think it would be good to know the different properties other than spool, cooling, and durability.

 

*Edit* Not exactly. Over the last 2.5 years, Garrett has been changing their bearing systems from the carbide steel ball-bearing CHRA to a Ceramic-Silicon Nitride Hybrid ball-bearing system. They are only now stating that the GTW series has this within its CHRA because of the fact that it is their newest series that has been released to the public with that system entirely. Most of the GTX and GT-R series still uses the Carbide Steel bearings, but are phasing CHRA inventory out little-by-little.

Eventually what will happen is that when all of the older Carbide steel versions are gone, Garrett will then officially change part numbers (which makes a lot of work for a lot of people) for all of their CHRAs that will then use the Ceramic-Composite Hybrid bearing system. The messed-up part is that neither dealers, master distributors, nor builders will know which material is in the bearing system until the new part number comes out. Remember, for these systems, its not cost-effective to tear the whole CHRA apart just to attempt to rebuild the whole thing. It's cheaper (for both user and distributor) to replace the CHRA through the Garrett program than to rebuild that cage system.

What I have noticed over the years is that I'm getting stuck in my ways when I need to head back to the chemistry and physics labs. I'm used the older style ceramic ball-bearing systems that were very heat resistant, but not nearly as robust as the carbide steel ball systems that have been used for years, as the ceramic ball-bearings would not wear evenly; they would just disintegrate into a million pieces and the whole CHRA was done, while the carbide steel ball CHRAs would wear down more evenly and hold their integrity. (This is first noticed by the user when their Garrett Ball-bearing CHRA would actually show signs of radial shaft "play", however slight, on the compressor wheel.) It didn't mean anything was wrong with the turbo, just that the heat and friction of the ***** in the bearing housing would wear down, like anything else.

I personally liked the carbide-steel bearing housings over the ceramic ones because I knew precisely what would happen with the ceramic ones. One day, everything is doing just fine, the next, the bearing housing was **** FACED, and I'm looking at the cost of buying a new CHRA. The only two drawbacks I've ever experienced with the Carbide Steel (aka "ballistic") ball-bearing cages is 1) adhesive wear (basically failure from the ***** and the cage fusing together from the turbo being outside of its operating parameters too long), thereby causing increased friction, and 2) the ball cages falling apart; basically when the steel ***** wear down to a point where they can't stay contained in the rotating cage, you can see them literally fall out. (but you have to do a LOT to get to that point).

The Ceramic ball disintegration issues were definitely a problem that Precision Turbo & Engine experienced with their 1st generation 6262 turbochargers that were an air-cooled only, ceramic ball-bearing CHRA. Turbonetics had a bit better luck with their ceramic materials, as it is a different chemical composition than the PTE units, but they had other issues in regards to consistent production that they had to deal with first. (That's another topic for discussion. )

Garrett, with the GTW series and some of the GTX I've worked with, definitely have ceramic-hybrid systems, which are, at first glance pretty impressive from the "finger spinning" test.. (C'mon now, we've all done it regardless of turbo make and model.. I'm still guilty of it, myself.. ). I've yet to deal with the dynamics of the new ceramic-hybrid ball-bearing CHRAs , but that's only because of my way of getting them, most of mine, from what I can tell, are still carbide-steel.

So, don't ask me whether or not one can just tell by simple observational tests if they have a Carbide-Steel or Ceramic-Hybrid system in their Ball-bearing Garrett CHRA. I'm still working on that.

If others are interested in these nuances, I'll gladly go into them. I just don't want to turn it into a senseless meritorious debates into which one is "better". The fact is, there's several ways to skin these cats. I tend to of course side by Garrett's knife, with the EFR a close second.

So, just let me know, people..

 

I'd like to know.

 

i guess it was too much to ask for his point of view. i got the just of it from the interwebz

 

Which can be dangerous in and of itself.

I'll keep this thread alive with more information when I have time during the week. Types of ceramic *****, their applications and how it pertains to cartridges and even oil-less systems

 

This sounds like the making of another good FAQ link ...

 

Nice information

 

Yea I think we need to clarify that there is a difference between ceramic and ceramic hybrid ball bearing systems.

Ceramic bearings are traditionally 100% ceramic from the ***** to the races. Awesome at high rpm and low friction, they also withstand heat fairly well. The drawback is that they are fragile, high thrust loads can shatter the assembly. In a traditional ball bearing cartridge like what Garrett offers there isn't a thrust bearing assembly separate from the bearings that support the shaft, both ball bearings do that job. So when you factor in how rapidly shaft speed can change all it takes is one good thrust load and you've murdered a center section.

The ceramic hybrid bearings use silicon nitride ***** in stainless steel or other non-ferrous races, typically with brass bearing cages (thank god no more thermoplastic races like the steel bearing systems used, failures of the cages were rare but it does happen (happened to me with my 2871r). The benefit here is you get the friction reduction that ceramic ***** offer with the silicon nitride material being far more durable than pure ceramic along with the strength and durability of a metal cage and metal races. This is increasingly becoming what large turbo manufactures are using. Garrett, Comp, Turbonetics, BorgWarner, and Precision all offer some iteration of a ceramic hybrid bearing system with their turbochargers.

The main reason for this shift is quality silicon nitride hybrid bearings have become more affordable. When Garrett and others first introduced the steel ball bearing systems the cost of silicon nitride and ceramic was through the roof, far to expensive to implement across an entire product range. Also this particular material was still in its infancy so there hadn't been a lot done in the way of durability and reliability testing. At least not at the level an OEM supplier would need not to mention the cost involved with such testing that might not yield a viable product. With advances in technology and manufacturing methods it is now much cheaper to produce them. So much so companies are even offering silicon nitride hybrid bearing systems on wheel bearings. One company offers them for the Evo 7-10 models. It's still a 3,000 dollar expense with 1/2" SN ***** being around 12-15 a piece but that is significantly cheaper than they used to be.

As technology and ease of manufacturing increases with time along with advances in materials the prices will only continue to decrease until they stabilize at some point. Who knows, they might discover an even more advanced material for ball bearings.

I don't know what exact material Garrett uses for their inner and outer races but I can tell you it's tuff as ****. When I was trying to remove the seized rear inner race off of my 2871r turbine shaft the material deformed the jaws on my vice grips and other pliers. The jaws even spun around the race multiple times and didn't even score the surface of the race.

It's worth noting that some companies do offer quality 3rd party ceramic hybrid bearing upgrades for the entire Garrett GT/GTX product line and so far they've proven to be incredibly reliable if setup and maintained properly. I plan on experimenting with one using my 2871R since the turbo needs components repaced and I got the turbocharger for free. So even if the bearing system ultimately grenades I can still learn something from it.

I think we should all start adding relevant and correct information to this thread and turn it into a good addition to the FAQ section. Who's with me?

 

Here are some videos doing comparisons

Full steel vs full ceramic friction/rpm test


Comparison of a Garrett full steel bearing CHRA vs same Garrett with a ceramic hybrid bearing system.

 

Since we are on the topic of friction reduction here's a good example of what the WPC treatment can offer in terms of friction reduction.



Full steel bearing after WPC treatment


This treatment has also been done to both journal bearing and steel/ceramic hybrid turbochargers with amazing results. Would be a viable option to keep the durability of a full steel bearing while still providing friction reduction similar to, if not better than a ceramic/ceramic hybrid bearing system. Granted having the process done to a ceramic hybrid bearing would yield even better results.

 

Is that just a fancy word for micropolishing?

 

No, no where near the same. It's a surface treatment, not polishing and so on.

 

the treatments that are being used like WPC and MicroBlue have similar applications and uses, but WPC processes make it difficult to apply to turbine shafts currently, while the MicroBlue process has already done that. I've already made steps to test this process on a few turbochargers that I have, but I will not record in the same way as these other videos, because I do not believe that simple hand spinning of a CHRA is a fair and balanced way of being able to see how the process works.

It's like when Lucas oil first came out with their oil stabilizer, and they had on display that little funky gear that you turn so that you can see the adhesive properties of how the oil slings across the gears?



Yeah. This is a cute way of being able to show that it works on a surface level, but then don't go into detail of how it works in a heated environment. Or the fact that putting too much of the stuff in your oil may have the opposite effect of what you're looking for.

I'll start testing this in the next month or so, but it will be on a few cars. I'm trying to make sure that the addition of 700* heat temperatures inside the CHRA mixed with the lubricating properties with oil will make a difference on an actual turbocharger under load between gears. Then I can compare them with a boost/rpm curve and see if it makes the difference where it counts to turbo users.

 

Since we're on the topic of all this lovely turbo talk, I was wondering if I may change it to a different aspect of turbos: VGT (or vvt, w/e you want to call it)
Seemed like a pretty cool concept, in theory gives you spool of small turbo with cfm and efficiency of a larger one, so why are no companies making these/anyone using them? Only ones I know of are on porsche 911s and perhaps another oem car....thoughts shodan?

 

If you don't mind making that into another thread, that would be fantastic. I'd like to keep this thread specifically as a sticky for Ceramic ball-bearings and their history of usability.

Otherwise, sure. That's fine. The utility is nothing new and has been around on applications for over 35 years. just god-awful expensive to use,and even more difficult to control without the right hardware/software.

The last production Honda turbo to have the VGT setup was the 2.3 Litre RDX.