Hello, I am an independent technician and new to this forum. I hope you guys can help as I am in a bit of a pickle. 2001 Accord with the F23. I put an engine in it about 1500 miles ago. It has made an odd power steering type whine since day one. I have been working on it on and off since day one trying to locate the issue. Upon engine installation, I replaced t/b w/p oil pump all seals etc as per the warranty requirements. I remove drive belts and timing covers and still hear the noise. it appears to be coming from the counterbalance shaft in the front making said noise. Due to the expense of these shafts, and limited funds of the owner, I was wondering if anyone has removed them on an F23 similar to what some people do on the H22. pro's con's? Thanks in advance for any advise.

 

Is it a noise or a vibration ?

 

Its a noise. Very similar to a power steering pump whine. I have tried new belts including oem, I heard there can be issues with the gates I originally installed. I also tried playing with the tension, as I heard that could also be an issue, but to no avail.

 

Confirm by running without the balance shaft belt. See if the noise goes away.

 

No, its not good to run without the balance shafts long term and is known to cause clutch chatter. The balance shafts work to cancel out ultrasonic vibrations that damage the crank and other components over time.

 

It's not often I disagree with you HnM, but that's false. All the balance shafts do is reduce NVH. It serves no other function. When I did the F23A1 swap into my '97, I left the balance shaft off. That was 8000 miles ago. Many others run without them and haven't had issues. If they did, it was because of improper installation of other items. Honda's factory supported race teams ALL run without them. I've personally been given word from HART and HPD people that it's perfectly safe to run without a balance shaft belt. They stated it's a proven 5+hp gain at higher RPM's.

 

As i said before its a long term consequence. Its not gonna be an immediate issue. Its about long term longevity. Thats why Honda originally included them.
And its 100% not false. If it was then Honda would never have included them in the first or perhaps you're smarter than Honda ?

 

Its just for NVH. It quells the inherent vibrations made from a larger displacement four cylinder. They're there for comfort, and that's it, and that's straight from people at Honda. Believe it or not, Honda actually made the H/F family of engines to be REFINED along with everything else. This the why the Accord is a much smoother car than the civic, the prelude than the integra, H/F's than B/D's, and more specifically the same reason K24's come with them and K20's do not. Longer strokes and larger bores make bigger bangs, which makes for harsher vibrations. The balance shafts spin opposite of the crankshaft at a speed that counteracts this to "soften" the vibrations. That's it, that is their only function. Removing them is perfectly safe if done correctly, but its a million times easier merely to remove the belt that drives them.

 

That is completely wrong. If it was correct, Honda would safely say its completely fine to run without them.

The vibrations you speak of are in fact harmful to the engine. What exactly do you think is happening when these vibrations you speak of are occurring ? Do you really think the engine isnt suffering from them ?

You can think what you want. Honda isnt the only car company that utilizes balance shafts and theres a reason for that.

 

Are you just blinding saying this because it's part of the engine? The balance shafts can be safely removed on MANY(not all) engines. The vibrations (most of the time) do not affect the engine in any way. Where's your proof of it being harmful, because I've spoken with people from HONDA who are ENGINEERS(not assembly line workers or stealership idiots!) that state they're ONLY for NVH. Honestly, I was wary about running without one before I left my belt off. Now, I honestly can say that there's hardly, if not any, difference in vibrations. I have a mount insert on my front mount, which would only amplify the vibrations of running without a belt, and there's little to no difference that I can discern.

http://pau.sagepub.com/content/30/2/453.extract
http://www.bhjdynamics.com/downloads...amper_Info.pdf
http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine..._absorbers.htm
http://www.zzperformance.com/blog/en...balance-shaft/

Read up. They're for NVH, ONLY. If anything, the crank pulley itself is doing more harm considering it's not a true damper.

 

Yeah, I know, I heard you the first time. You've talked to many, many, performance enthusiasts who don't give a **** about keeping an engine for many miles. They like riding their cars at the track a few nights a week. Big ******* deal. I'm talking about wanting to keep your engine going for another 100k.

You want me to read up ? Here, you read up.

Keep Your Balance Shafts ? Jacks Transmissions

Of course, people that sell balance shaft delete kits are going to want to say that it's ok to delete your balance shaft. No kidding ?

You can talk about your "inside informants" all you want. I'm using common sense. And common sense says Honda put balance shafts in your car, despite your opinion of no discernible difference, for a very good reason. Only a moron would take a risk of deleting their balance shafts for only a "5 hp gain" if they plan on keeping their car for a while.

 

As usual youre wrong. The balance shafts are only for NVH. They contribute nothing to the longevity of the engine. They are there for comfort. My information comes directly from Honda factory training. Its been years since the training, I'll see if I can find the training module. But basically the are only there to counteract vibrations that occur on 4cyl engines over two liters of displacement.


Honda is not the only one that does this,pretty much all manufactures do it,and for the same reason.










I ran with out the balance shaft belt on my H22 cb7 for about 6 years with no problems. I sold that engine to a member on here a few years ago and as far as I know he is still running it fine today.

 

As usual Im wrong ? Looks like someones mad cause he got bitch slapped by me in previous threads.

If 99% of your posts werent simply to say other people were wrong maybe more people would take you serious.

Again, if Honda didnt think using the shafts was a benefit to the longevity of the motors then they would be happy to tell us its ok not to run them. And they wouldnt be secretly telling "certain" people during "training sessions".

 

Typical HT thread descending into "I KNOW I'M RIGHT" bashing.

OP, did you line up the timing marks on the balance shaft pulleys with TDC?

Have you tried disconnecting the belt to confirm as a helpful member suggested?

I replaced a F22 on an Odyssey van recently, which resulted in the power steering pump making some horrible rattling noise for a minute, but all I had to was replace an o ring on the power steering hose and bleed the system. I take it that you're referring to a belt squeal type noise? Not sure if the balance shaft is even capable of making that sound.

 

It wouldnt be if some people didnt delight in telling other people they are wrong with no actual evidence to back up their claim.

I dont delight in following other people around and telling them they're wrong if im not 100% certain of it and i dont have the goods to back up my claim.

 

Like this one:
https://honda-tech.com/tech-misc-15/...-jobs-3227957/



or this one:
https://honda-tech.com/honda-accord-...2674082/page3/



or maybe you care to post a thread were you ever knew what you were talking about.......


You're a clown. A backyard,internet mechanic who continuously looks like an *** on these forums.

 

I wasnt wrong in either thread, you got bitch slapped in both of those threads. Try harder. Much harder. Cause as usual youre wrong.

I know, i know it hurts.

I always look forward to making you look bad so please keep it coming.

 

I really love it when you ask people to help out your arguments when they completely fall apart. Honestly thats the best part.

 

LMFAO! I dont know if you are really so dumb as to think you were right in those threads, or if you are simply trolling.

 

For those following along and who wish to learn from the real deal and not some wanna be. I did this training over 10 years ago,but I remeber it well:


Here you'll see in the first sentence under the heading: Why this module is important: "Balance shafts are not important to engine operation"
We discussed this in training. They are not there for engine balancing,they are there for vibration balancing. It is distinctly different.



This is a more in depth look at the shafts and their function:


The real reason:


What secondary vibration is:


Essentially any 4cyl engine that is over square runs rough.

 

For those following along, I will decipher the small amount of information that this clown has posted here.

"Balance shafts are not important to engine operation" basically tells everyone what we already know. Balance shafts have nothing to do with engine operation. No surprise there since we all know that balance shafts are not directly tied to any engine operation.

Anyone following along will note that nowhere has this guy posted anything from Honda saying it's perfectly fine and dandy to run without the balance shaft belts. I'm sure he can find something to that effect in his numerous volumes of Honda training modules. So stay tuned. He's still trying to find something to that effect. Bear with us. Thanks for your cooperation.

 

Stop digging the hole, holmes! I know it doesn't feel good when someone says you are wrong and then proves it. Just tuck your tail between your legs and move on.

If you're waiting for someone to post a statement from Honda saying it is safe to remove the BS "to prove you wrong", they won't be able to. Honda would NEVER do that, whether it is fine or not. They have to protect their brand. If people start pulling out things like that and then the cars start having problems, whether it just be noise, vibrations, or anything else, it becomes a public relations liability. I think it is pretty safe to say Honda would like to be known as having the smoothest running engines. Suggesting it's ok to pull the BS would not help that cause, even if it is ok! Saying it is ok to alter the way the car was delivered makes the manufacturer liable for any issues that could possibly arise from the modification, too.

I have an E46 3-Series that came with 225/45/17 tires all around. I just put on OEM E92 18's. 225/40/18's up front and 255/35/18 in the back. Car runs perfectly fine. Ride is a little more harsh, but nothing else wrong. If I asked BMW if that is ok, do you think they would say it is fine to run them? If they do, ANY issues that I can remotely attribute to running different sized wheels and tires can allow me to hold BMW liable, even if it is ok to run them.

I have read several of your posts before and you seem pretty knowledgeable and willing to help people but your true colors were shown here. You seem to think you're a know-it-all. Not cool, man. Not cool!

 

I have absolutely no problem standing corrected when actually wrong. And have done so. I clearly am not here.

Some people seem to think they are smarter than Honda. If you want to fall under that group thats your business.

If it was safe to run without the balance shafts Honda would state as much. Plain and simple.

 

sb en17 seems to say that they are not essential to engine operation and that is from the HONDA people so give it a brake!

 

They are obviously talking about the normal functioning of the engine.

For those that have actually ran without them(myself included) you will note that the vibration isnt enough to be an issue so obviously there is another reason that the vibration is an issue.

You will note not all Honda engines have them so obviously they are essential in those that do.

This isnt rocket science.