Informal Pole for ECHC Drivers
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From: Plotting My Revenge
Informal Pole for ECHC Drivers
If you participated in the ECHC in 2002, or didn't but are definately going to race in the ECHC, MWHC, or WCHC in '03, Please answer this pole.
Note: "definately" going to race in '03 means the car is already built or under construction and you are already licensed or have solid plans to be licensed in '03.
Please... no votes from "I really want to, all I need is a car, some track experience, and permission from my wife" type people.
This info is needed for future plans regarding series expansion and may need to be shared with Sponsors, Officials and such. Please be serious.
The question is...
"How important is the modified 13/13 rule to you as a driver?"
Thanks in advance.
Note: "definately" going to race in '03 means the car is already built or under construction and you are already licensed or have solid plans to be licensed in '03.
Please... no votes from "I really want to, all I need is a car, some track experience, and permission from my wife" type people.
This info is needed for future plans regarding series expansion and may need to be shared with Sponsors, Officials and such. Please be serious.
The question is...
"How important is the modified 13/13 rule to you as a driver?"
Thanks in advance.
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From: Tucson, AZ
Re: Informal Pole for ECHC Drivers (Catch 22)
Hmm
i wonder where this poll idea came from.
Im gonna say the same thing i told the other WCHC reps.
I know of people who WONT race unless there is a 13/13 rule or a variation of it becaus ethey dailydrive their car.
[Modified by KAMiN, 4:26 PM 11/1/2002]
i wonder where this poll idea came from.
Im gonna say the same thing i told the other WCHC reps.
I know of people who WONT race unless there is a 13/13 rule or a variation of it becaus ethey dailydrive their car.
[Modified by KAMiN, 4:26 PM 11/1/2002]
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From: Pacific Northwest, USA
Re: Informal Pole for ECHC Drivers (Catch 22)
I voted for #1, but I wonder why the idea of altering that rule is even a subject of discussion. Isn't that one of the biggest reasons the ECHC was formed in the first place? Why consider changing it?
John -- who's racing regardless.
[Modified by johng, 4:36 PM 11/1/2002]
John -- who's racing regardless.
[Modified by johng, 4:36 PM 11/1/2002]
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From: Charlotte, NC, USA
Re: Informal Pole for ECHC Drivers (johng)
I voted for #1, but I wonder why the idea of altering that rule is even a subject of discussion. Isn't that one of the biggest reasons the ECHC was formed in the first place? Why consider changing it?
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: Pac NW
Re: Informal Pole for ECHC Drivers (XR4racer)
Before I vote, I'd like to read it. Can someone post the rule in it's original or modified version??
Is it just the 13 month suspension language that "protects" the drivers with daily drivers?
Greg
Is it just the 13 month suspension language that "protects" the drivers with daily drivers?
Greg
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From: I started it
Re: Informal Pole for ECHC Drivers (bulldog_RS20)
Section 5.0 of the ECHC Rule Book follows. See also http://www.honda-challenge.com/forms/rules.pdf.
5.0 Driver Code of Conduct
5.1 Introduction
The philosophy behind the East Coast Honda Challenge is a simple one. It is intended to be a motorsports showcase for Honda products in a clean, sportsmanlike environment. The founders of this series – and many of those who have come on board early on – share a common mindset. The belief is that a skilled, clean, well-executed pass is preferable to “punting” one’s competition off the racetrack or “leaning” against them to gain position.
Many marque and historic racing organizations (BMWCCA, SVRA, HSR, and more)
have what has been nicknamed the “13/13 Rule.” This rule effectively puts any driver involved in any contact under probation for 13 months…irrespective of where the fault lies in the incident. Should this driver be involved in more contact in that 13 months, he or she is asked not to come back. The ECHC implements a modified version of this 13/13 Rule.
It is felt that a sportsmanlike environment, where skill is more highly valued than
aggression, fosters sportsmanship and friendship. It also helps the participants maintain a reasonable budget.
This being said, participants in the East Coast Honda Challenge need to be aware that accidents happen in automobile racing. This is, by nature, a dangerous sport. While these contact rules are in place to promote a driver (and car, and budget) friendly environment, they are not to be interpreted as a guarantee that car-to-car contact will never take place.
5.2 Driver Conduct Management: Organization and Process
5.2.1 Conduct Stewards
Each race in the East Coast Honda Challenge will have at least two Conduct stewards. These conduct stewards will be regular participants in the series who have been selected by the co-directors of the program prior to the event. The role of the conduct stewards is to oversee driver behavior throughout the weekend. This includes, and is not limited to:
- Monitoring and/or stopping over-aggressive driving, in practice, qualifying and race sessions. If a driver is viewed as a threat to the safety of other drivers on track, it is within the rights of the conduct stewards, after review with the series directors, to remove said driver from the track for the day.
- Partnering with track staff, corner workers, and especially fellow racers, in an effort to make sure the Honda Challenge philosophy of clean driving and good sportsmanship remains intact throughout the weekend
- In the event of car-to-car contact, the conduct stewards are responsible for the
following:
- Collection of information from all drivers involved
- Collection of information from corner workers where applicable
- Mediation of post-incident interviews
- Reporting of findings to the series directors and NASA Race Director
5.2.2 Driver Probation
In the event of car-to-car contact, all drivers involved are subject to probation. A
template for determining probations is below in section 5.3. When a driver is placed on probation following an on-track incident, he/she will be under strict monitoring by the conduct stewards, the series directors, and the NASA race
director. The series directors will maintain a record of each driver that is on probation, and maintain careful records of his/her behavior at subsequent races.
Additionally, competitors will be notified in each drivers meeting of any participant
currently on probation. The intent is not to single out or embarrass a driver, but to simply notify other drivers that there are participants on the track who have had serious enough incidents to require probation.
Probation lasts for a period of 13 months from the date of the incident forward. During these 13 months, any probation driver involved in another incident, and found at fault (partially or completely) will be banned from all future competition in the East Coast Honda Challenge.
Any driver completing the 13 month probationary period with no further incidents will return to full non-probationary status. Series directors will notify a driver when their probation has been lifted.
Uninvolved drivers and/or corner workers and track staff may also report rough driving. The designated conduct stewards for each race will take this input under advisement.
5.3 In the Event of Car-to-Car Contact
5.3.1 The Interview Process
After any car-to-car contact, all of the drivers involved will be required to meet with the conduct stewards. Based on the data available (based on, but not limited to, the data points described in “5.2.1: Conduct Stewards”), the stewards will make a decision on any probationary actions to be taken against the driver(s) involved.
5.3.2 Scenarios
The series directors have identified some possible scenarios for car-to-car contact, and typical findings of the stewards:
1. Contact caused by the mechanical failure of one or more cars. Typically there will be no fault found with any driver involved, and no probation will be filed against any driver.
2. “Racing incidents” where no drivers involved feel anyone was at fault. In wheel to wheel racing, it is inevitable that incidental contact will take place. In these cases, where no drivers involved in the incident feel anyone is at fault, no probation will be filed against any of the involved drivers.
3. One or more drivers find fault. After review by the safety stewards and the series directors, a driver is found at fault = probation. Drivers placed under probation may appeal to the board – see section 4.0 for details of the appeals process.
4. One or more drivers think there is fault – investigation proves otherwise. No probation.
The above scenarios are to be considered a guide only – all incidents of car-to-car contact are subject to the “Interview Process” as described in section 3.0.1 of this document.
5.4 Forfeiture of Points / Finishing Position
Any driver found at fault in an incident will be disqualified and forfeit his/her finishing position for that race. Any driver that is removed from the series due to being found at fault for two incidents within the designated 13 month period will forfeit all series points accumulated for the year.
5.5 The Appeals Process
5.5.1 Time Limit on Appeals
Drivers placed on probation may file an appeal to the board. Such appeals must be in writing and mailed to the following address (postmarked no later than one week after the event):
ECHC Driver Appeals
c/o Karl Shultz
<My Mailing Address>
5.5.2 Appeal Fee
The fee to appeal probation is $100, payable to the East Coast Honda Challenge. This fee is refunded in full should the decision of the steward be overturned.
5.5.3 Overturned Probations after Successful Appeal
Steward findings will only be overturned in the event of extremely compelling evidence (examples: video recordings, credible eyewitness report) in favor of the accused driver.
[Modified by krshultz, 8:40 PM 11/1/2002]
5.0 Driver Code of Conduct
5.1 Introduction
The philosophy behind the East Coast Honda Challenge is a simple one. It is intended to be a motorsports showcase for Honda products in a clean, sportsmanlike environment. The founders of this series – and many of those who have come on board early on – share a common mindset. The belief is that a skilled, clean, well-executed pass is preferable to “punting” one’s competition off the racetrack or “leaning” against them to gain position.
Many marque and historic racing organizations (BMWCCA, SVRA, HSR, and more)
have what has been nicknamed the “13/13 Rule.” This rule effectively puts any driver involved in any contact under probation for 13 months…irrespective of where the fault lies in the incident. Should this driver be involved in more contact in that 13 months, he or she is asked not to come back. The ECHC implements a modified version of this 13/13 Rule.
It is felt that a sportsmanlike environment, where skill is more highly valued than
aggression, fosters sportsmanship and friendship. It also helps the participants maintain a reasonable budget.
This being said, participants in the East Coast Honda Challenge need to be aware that accidents happen in automobile racing. This is, by nature, a dangerous sport. While these contact rules are in place to promote a driver (and car, and budget) friendly environment, they are not to be interpreted as a guarantee that car-to-car contact will never take place.
5.2 Driver Conduct Management: Organization and Process
5.2.1 Conduct Stewards
Each race in the East Coast Honda Challenge will have at least two Conduct stewards. These conduct stewards will be regular participants in the series who have been selected by the co-directors of the program prior to the event. The role of the conduct stewards is to oversee driver behavior throughout the weekend. This includes, and is not limited to:
- Monitoring and/or stopping over-aggressive driving, in practice, qualifying and race sessions. If a driver is viewed as a threat to the safety of other drivers on track, it is within the rights of the conduct stewards, after review with the series directors, to remove said driver from the track for the day.
- Partnering with track staff, corner workers, and especially fellow racers, in an effort to make sure the Honda Challenge philosophy of clean driving and good sportsmanship remains intact throughout the weekend
- In the event of car-to-car contact, the conduct stewards are responsible for the
following:
- Collection of information from all drivers involved
- Collection of information from corner workers where applicable
- Mediation of post-incident interviews
- Reporting of findings to the series directors and NASA Race Director
5.2.2 Driver Probation
In the event of car-to-car contact, all drivers involved are subject to probation. A
template for determining probations is below in section 5.3. When a driver is placed on probation following an on-track incident, he/she will be under strict monitoring by the conduct stewards, the series directors, and the NASA race
director. The series directors will maintain a record of each driver that is on probation, and maintain careful records of his/her behavior at subsequent races.
Additionally, competitors will be notified in each drivers meeting of any participant
currently on probation. The intent is not to single out or embarrass a driver, but to simply notify other drivers that there are participants on the track who have had serious enough incidents to require probation.
Probation lasts for a period of 13 months from the date of the incident forward. During these 13 months, any probation driver involved in another incident, and found at fault (partially or completely) will be banned from all future competition in the East Coast Honda Challenge.
Any driver completing the 13 month probationary period with no further incidents will return to full non-probationary status. Series directors will notify a driver when their probation has been lifted.
Uninvolved drivers and/or corner workers and track staff may also report rough driving. The designated conduct stewards for each race will take this input under advisement.
5.3 In the Event of Car-to-Car Contact
5.3.1 The Interview Process
After any car-to-car contact, all of the drivers involved will be required to meet with the conduct stewards. Based on the data available (based on, but not limited to, the data points described in “5.2.1: Conduct Stewards”), the stewards will make a decision on any probationary actions to be taken against the driver(s) involved.
5.3.2 Scenarios
The series directors have identified some possible scenarios for car-to-car contact, and typical findings of the stewards:
1. Contact caused by the mechanical failure of one or more cars. Typically there will be no fault found with any driver involved, and no probation will be filed against any driver.
2. “Racing incidents” where no drivers involved feel anyone was at fault. In wheel to wheel racing, it is inevitable that incidental contact will take place. In these cases, where no drivers involved in the incident feel anyone is at fault, no probation will be filed against any of the involved drivers.
3. One or more drivers find fault. After review by the safety stewards and the series directors, a driver is found at fault = probation. Drivers placed under probation may appeal to the board – see section 4.0 for details of the appeals process.
4. One or more drivers think there is fault – investigation proves otherwise. No probation.
The above scenarios are to be considered a guide only – all incidents of car-to-car contact are subject to the “Interview Process” as described in section 3.0.1 of this document.
5.4 Forfeiture of Points / Finishing Position
Any driver found at fault in an incident will be disqualified and forfeit his/her finishing position for that race. Any driver that is removed from the series due to being found at fault for two incidents within the designated 13 month period will forfeit all series points accumulated for the year.
5.5 The Appeals Process
5.5.1 Time Limit on Appeals
Drivers placed on probation may file an appeal to the board. Such appeals must be in writing and mailed to the following address (postmarked no later than one week after the event):
ECHC Driver Appeals
c/o Karl Shultz
<My Mailing Address>
5.5.2 Appeal Fee
The fee to appeal probation is $100, payable to the East Coast Honda Challenge. This fee is refunded in full should the decision of the steward be overturned.
5.5.3 Overturned Probations after Successful Appeal
Steward findings will only be overturned in the event of extremely compelling evidence (examples: video recordings, credible eyewitness report) in favor of the accused driver.
[Modified by krshultz, 8:40 PM 11/1/2002]
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 235
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From: Raleigh, NC, USA
Re: Informal Pole for ECHC Drivers (Catch 22)
I know why you are asking..... I just finished talking with Karl and daid to him there are two reasons I sold the Miata and entered this series. One, I knew you guys and knew you would put together a fun series. And second, the "no contact" or 13/13 rule.
Would I have entered the series without that rule? Probably not. Would I leave if it was eliminated? Depends what took its place. SCCA has a "no rough driving" type clause. So does NASA In my opinion neither is effective. It would be hard to replace the 13/13 rule with anything that would meet the desire I have for a racing series which is a group of folks that enjoy racing, hard racing, but without leaning on each other to get through the corners.
Lets hope you are allowed to keep things as they are.
Ron
Would I have entered the series without that rule? Probably not. Would I leave if it was eliminated? Depends what took its place. SCCA has a "no rough driving" type clause. So does NASA In my opinion neither is effective. It would be hard to replace the 13/13 rule with anything that would meet the desire I have for a racing series which is a group of folks that enjoy racing, hard racing, but without leaning on each other to get through the corners.
Lets hope you are allowed to keep things as they are.
Ron
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From: Plotting My Revenge
Re: Informal Pole for ECHC Drivers (thecaptain)
Just about every organization has rules in place governing driver conduct. But, as the Captain referred to above, they are notoriously not enforced or looked at in a very relaxed manner. This certainly doesn't apply to all bodies in all regions, but it is definately a problem that is out there.
The purpose of our 13/13 was to make an obvious upfront statement that we would NOT tolerate certain behaviours and have a process to back that statement.
Our 13/13, in a nutshell, states that if you are found to have caused contact either intentionally to gain position or by lapse of judgement, you go on probation for 13 months. If you cause (same guidelines) another incident within those 13 months, you are history.
Probation also carries forfeiture of points and finishing position.
The difference between the HC 13/13 and that of other clubs (Vintage, etc.) is that we recognize that in racing there are "racing incidents." In other words, nobody did anything malicious or by error in judgement, but cars did contact.
This is unofficially known as the "**** happens in racing" rule.
The point of this poll is to get a feel of how important this rule is to those that participate with it.
Again, this is racing, and "no contact" is a pipe dream. What we attempted to do with the 13/13 is plant a mindset in everyone's head to keep the cars off of each other. We <U>think</U> it worked, but we want to find out how everyone else feels about it.
The purpose of our 13/13 was to make an obvious upfront statement that we would NOT tolerate certain behaviours and have a process to back that statement.
Our 13/13, in a nutshell, states that if you are found to have caused contact either intentionally to gain position or by lapse of judgement, you go on probation for 13 months. If you cause (same guidelines) another incident within those 13 months, you are history.
Probation also carries forfeiture of points and finishing position.
The difference between the HC 13/13 and that of other clubs (Vintage, etc.) is that we recognize that in racing there are "racing incidents." In other words, nobody did anything malicious or by error in judgement, but cars did contact.
This is unofficially known as the "**** happens in racing" rule.
The point of this poll is to get a feel of how important this rule is to those that participate with it.
Again, this is racing, and "no contact" is a pipe dream. What we attempted to do with the 13/13 is plant a mindset in everyone's head to keep the cars off of each other. We <U>think</U> it worked, but we want to find out how everyone else feels about it.
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Posts: 12,232
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From: Browns Summit, NC, USA
Re: Informal Pole for ECHC Drivers (Catch 22)
i loved the rule....why? because being a rookie i felt that there wasn't going to be someone diving into a turn that i was already in and bumping me just to gain a posistion, you know what i'm talking about....how WE ALL PLAY GRAN TOURISMO 3!!! bump and run.....i did not want that happening to me even if my car cost less than a months paycheck.....
i'm not sure that at times i was not aggressive....ask robert....ask bensen (chris brinson) there were times i was right on their ***....i think i could have dove in on a pass but....i didn't want to be on probationi!!!
i thought we had some seriously clean and exciting racing this year....even being able to see this from my drivers seat....and after the races seeing it on video....DUDES i had a blast!! don't change a thing!!!! would like a spec tire though just to save $$$$$ although i only spent 600 on tires for the year!!
i'm not sure that at times i was not aggressive....ask robert....ask bensen (chris brinson) there were times i was right on their ***....i think i could have dove in on a pass but....i didn't want to be on probationi!!!
i thought we had some seriously clean and exciting racing this year....even being able to see this from my drivers seat....and after the races seeing it on video....DUDES i had a blast!! don't change a thing!!!! would like a spec tire though just to save $$$$$ although i only spent 600 on tires for the year!!
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 157
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From: Nags Head, NC,USA
Re: Informal Pole for ECHC Drivers (Catch 22)
Yo, Scott, I mean like how long do these polls stay active? I thought i had good reaction time but DAAHAMN... Oh, well, late for the grid...late for the poll... 
I agree with Ron and others. One thing that can separate us from our SCCA counterparts is zero tolerance for crash festing. I think people in EHC "get it". If it ain't broke, don't fix it!Stand your ground with you know who, boys! Maybe do a, ahem, THOROUGH (over several days) poll and forward the results. I can help you word the poll to reflect desired results since I'm such a cunning linguist. Sorry, couldn't resist...I dressed as a "dirty old man" for halloween. Having a *hard time* getting outta role...
wildman
It's d-e-f-i-n- I -t-e-l-y, dammit.
I agree with Ron and others. One thing that can separate us from our SCCA counterparts is zero tolerance for crash festing. I think people in EHC "get it". If it ain't broke, don't fix it!Stand your ground with you know who, boys! Maybe do a, ahem, THOROUGH (over several days) poll and forward the results. I can help you word the poll to reflect desired results since I'm such a cunning linguist. Sorry, couldn't resist...I dressed as a "dirty old man" for halloween. Having a *hard time* getting outta role...
wildman
It's d-e-f-i-n- I -t-e-l-y, dammit.
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 157
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From: Nags Head, NC,USA
Re: Informal Pole for ECHC Drivers (racerman50)
DOH!
I'm an idjit! Went back, hit the button,DAHAAMN!, my vote registered!
Complaint: didn't work on 2nd vote attempt. Computer error? Ouch! Damn tongue caught in cheek again!
wildman
I'm an idjit! Went back, hit the button,DAHAAMN!, my vote registered!
Complaint: didn't work on 2nd vote attempt. Computer error? Ouch! Damn tongue caught in cheek again!
wildman
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Posts: 2,701
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From: Northern, CA, USA
Re: Informal Pole for ECHC Drivers (krshultz)
I am not voting but would like to point out some things.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I know of people who WONT race unless there is a 13/13 rule or a variation of it becaus ethey dailydrive their car"
"from the ECHC 13/13 rule: This is, by nature, a dangerous sport. While these contact rules are in place to promote a driver (and car, and budget) friendly environment, they are not to be interpreted as a guarantee that car-to-car contact will never take place."
It is a disservice to lead people to believe that their car will not or could not be damaged. There are no guarantees. If you can't afford to write it off ($$ wise or senimental value) don't track it. Period. How many times have we advised others on this?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"SCCA has a "no rough driving" type clause. So does NASA In my opinion neither is effective."
"But, as the Captain referred to above, they are notoriously not enforced or looked at in a very relaxed manner."
"This certainly doesn't apply to all bodies in all regions, but it is definately a problem that is out there."
Not all regions are run the same! Discipline & what is considered rough driving is written up in the rules. The officials subjectively decide what is rough driving. In NASA, the race director and/or promoter can dictate that certain groups have a tighter set of rules. The officials also have the option of applying more severe penalties, then those outlined in the GCR, if the actions warrent it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The purpose of our 13/13 was to make an obvious upfront statement that we would NOT tolerate certain behaviours and have a process to back that statement."
So what you are trying to achieve is a state of mind. I agree with that. I just don't think it (13/13) needs to be in the rule book. There are other ways to word it. We can just say, "rough driving will not be tolerated. You will be baned from racing in this series."
Honestly, the point is moot if you (Karl & Scott) don't want to go national. You do have a good thing going there. I would like to have it out here. If not, ....I will just keep racing enduros or ....??
added in edit 11/4/02:
It was pointed out to me that some people might have gotten the wrong idea. This is just a FYI to set the record straight.
It was NOT a WCHC rep. that suggested to NASA that there shouldn't be a 13/13 rule. They brought it up. They said it didn't fit within their current rules & discipline structure. They said it would be hard to promote with said rule.
[Modified by civicrr, 9:39 PM 11/4/2002]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I know of people who WONT race unless there is a 13/13 rule or a variation of it becaus ethey dailydrive their car"
"from the ECHC 13/13 rule: This is, by nature, a dangerous sport. While these contact rules are in place to promote a driver (and car, and budget) friendly environment, they are not to be interpreted as a guarantee that car-to-car contact will never take place."
It is a disservice to lead people to believe that their car will not or could not be damaged. There are no guarantees. If you can't afford to write it off ($$ wise or senimental value) don't track it. Period. How many times have we advised others on this?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"SCCA has a "no rough driving" type clause. So does NASA In my opinion neither is effective."
"But, as the Captain referred to above, they are notoriously not enforced or looked at in a very relaxed manner."
"This certainly doesn't apply to all bodies in all regions, but it is definately a problem that is out there."
Not all regions are run the same! Discipline & what is considered rough driving is written up in the rules. The officials subjectively decide what is rough driving. In NASA, the race director and/or promoter can dictate that certain groups have a tighter set of rules. The officials also have the option of applying more severe penalties, then those outlined in the GCR, if the actions warrent it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The purpose of our 13/13 was to make an obvious upfront statement that we would NOT tolerate certain behaviours and have a process to back that statement."
So what you are trying to achieve is a state of mind. I agree with that. I just don't think it (13/13) needs to be in the rule book. There are other ways to word it. We can just say, "rough driving will not be tolerated. You will be baned from racing in this series."
Honestly, the point is moot if you (Karl & Scott) don't want to go national. You do have a good thing going there. I would like to have it out here. If not, ....I will just keep racing enduros or ....??
added in edit 11/4/02:
It was pointed out to me that some people might have gotten the wrong idea. This is just a FYI to set the record straight.
It was NOT a WCHC rep. that suggested to NASA that there shouldn't be a 13/13 rule. They brought it up. They said it didn't fit within their current rules & discipline structure. They said it would be hard to promote with said rule.
[Modified by civicrr, 9:39 PM 11/4/2002]
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From: Greensboro, NC, USA
Re: Informal Pole for ECHC Drivers (Warren)
At the end of the day (and the ECHC poobahs know this) the text of the rule is nothing - it is enforcement that establishes what is acceptable and what isn't. Having said that, the 13/13 rule is symbolic. It actually means something to the people involved with it and can influence behavior.
For what it might be worth. There is a pretty good chance that I WILL get to come play with you guys next season* but I won't vote at this point - just share an opinion.
Kirk
* Excellent job prospect in Greensboro, NC
For what it might be worth. There is a pretty good chance that I WILL get to come play with you guys next season* but I won't vote at this point - just share an opinion.
Kirk
* Excellent job prospect in Greensboro, NC
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Posts: 3,846
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From: I started it
Re: Informal Pole for ECHC Drivers (civicrr)
Not all regions are run the same!
Good dialogue everyone, let's keep it up.
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 235
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From: Raleigh, NC, USA
Re: Informal Pole for ECHC Drivers (civicrr)
So what you are trying to achieve is a state of mind. I agree with that. I just don't think it (13/13) needs to be in the rule book. There are other ways to word it. We can just say, "rough driving will not be tolerated. You will be baned from racing in this series."
There are several reasons why I WANT the 13/13 wording in the rules.
As several have already said, it gets people in the right state of mind. It makes people think about diving into that corner knowing that if they make contact their fun is over for perhaps ever!
Also, it lets people know that ECHC is SERIOUS about this idea. SCCA, while the words are there, just don't do a very good job of enforcing it. I have real stories of people wrecking cars AT THEIR DRIVING SCHOOL and still getting their race license!! What message does that send. "Hey, we think we mean this , wink wink, but we are really a for profit place and want to put on a good show and we know wrecks make good shows". Perhaps a bit harsh....
Anyway, the simple fact that this topic is being discussed means that the 13/13 rule is working. That is really good news for this series.
Now, as for others wanting to start this up in other areas (west coast for instance) what is stopping that from happening? The format and rules have been established. Its accepted by NASA. NASA sees the benefits it brings to their program. So, just go ahead and start it. Perhaps simplified but certainly doable.
Good luck.
Ron
There are several reasons why I WANT the 13/13 wording in the rules.
As several have already said, it gets people in the right state of mind. It makes people think about diving into that corner knowing that if they make contact their fun is over for perhaps ever!
Also, it lets people know that ECHC is SERIOUS about this idea. SCCA, while the words are there, just don't do a very good job of enforcing it. I have real stories of people wrecking cars AT THEIR DRIVING SCHOOL and still getting their race license!! What message does that send. "Hey, we think we mean this , wink wink, but we are really a for profit place and want to put on a good show and we know wrecks make good shows". Perhaps a bit harsh....
Anyway, the simple fact that this topic is being discussed means that the 13/13 rule is working. That is really good news for this series.
Now, as for others wanting to start this up in other areas (west coast for instance) what is stopping that from happening? The format and rules have been established. Its accepted by NASA. NASA sees the benefits it brings to their program. So, just go ahead and start it. Perhaps simplified but certainly doable.
Good luck.
Ron
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Re: Informal Pole for ECHC Drivers (thecaptain)
Also, it lets people know that ECHC is SERIOUS about this idea. SCCA, while the words are there, just don't do a very good job of enforcing it. I have real stories of people wrecking cars AT THEIR DRIVING SCHOOL and still getting their race license!! What message does that send. "Hey, we think we mean this , wink wink, but we are really a for profit place and want to put on a good show and we know wrecks make good shows". Perhaps a bit harsh....
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Again, this is a regional thing. Not all chapters are run the same.
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Anyway, the simple fact that this topic is being discussed means that the 13/13 rule is working. That is really good news for this series.
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No contact, good driving & close competition ARE GREAT. Yes, it does seem to be working. I applaud that.
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Now, as for others wanting to start this up in other areas (west coast for instance) what is stopping that from happening? The format and rules have been established. Its accepted by NASA. NASA sees the benefits it brings to their program. So, just go ahead and start it. Perhaps simplified but certainly doable.
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Much more of a over simplification than you know. If it were that easy, the series would be ready to be put on the schedule out here. Not only that, but I am sure that Jerry would be letting everyone @ SEMA know next week. I am talking about the mags., mfg & vendors, in other words, potential sponsors. NASA wants a national series that will attract the import enthusiast. What the EC, all of us actually, need to decide is will <U>allowing that corrupt the good thing that is Honda Challenge</U> .
Regional differences. Remember that Jerry K. (CEO & NorCal director) was one of the founders of NASA. It started here in NorCal. Ryan the National director also runs the Socal region. Even though each region (director) has a little leeway, these two will more closely follow the 'exact' wording in the GCR.
NASA ECHC gets their own run group with 20 cars. We have big fields here. HPDE typically has at least 40 on track per session here. It is not uncommon to have over 60 cars on track in a sprint race.
The mindset out here is that Vintage racing (which has a true 13/13 rule) isn't really racing. It is more like parade laps or HPDE. (***IMPORTANT***not a slam to ECHC or those who advocate the rule, just pointing out regional diffs.***)
....as far as just starting one, I personally will not start or participate in starting a "true Honda Challenge" out here without the blessing of the founding fathers. Just FYI, WCHC has approached 3 diff. orgs so far. NASA is tentatively our first choice at this time because: 1) ECHC runs with NASA. 2) They are much more open than the other big org. - it won't happen with them. Period. No room. They have too many classes now. 3) They have the SoCal & NorCal regions & would be willing to send guest groups to the PacNW.
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[Modified by civicrr, 10:38 AM 11/2/2002]
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Re: Informal Pole for ECHC Drivers (thecaptain)
There are several reasons why I WANT the 13/13 wording in the rules.
As several have already said, it gets people in the right state of mind. It makes people think about diving into that corner knowing that if they make contact their fun is over for perhaps ever!
As several have already said, it gets people in the right state of mind. It makes people think about diving into that corner knowing that if they make contact their fun is over for perhaps ever!
I have real stories of people wrecking cars AT THEIR DRIVING SCHOOL and still getting their race license!! What message does that send.
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Re: Informal Pole for ECHC Drivers (XR4racer)
I did not vote as I will not be participating in 2003. But 2004+ is a very real possibility, and one of the main reasons I like this series is the 13/13 rule. If you need a bump to pass, you not really a good driver. And there is plenty of that in IT racing.
Keep the rule the way it is!!! and maintain the great racing!
Keep the rule the way it is!!! and maintain the great racing!
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Re: Informal Pole for ECHC Drivers (StageOne)
If you need a bump to pass, you not really a good driver.
Is it the perception that if there isn't a 13/13 rule, body contact either incidental or done purposedly to pass ala NASCAR, is then permitted and/or condoned?
For the record, I don't bump draft, I don't lean & I don't slam the door by diving down into corners. Not that there haven't been opertunities (sp?), it just isn't my style. Gaining position 'cuz you drive like an a**hole just means you are an a**hole.
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Re: Informal Pole for ECHC Drivers (JeffS)
I think it's the mindset more than anything else. As mentioned, it just makes people take that 2nd thought before trying a low percentage move or punting for position.
I think the true measure of the effectiveness of the rule is how many times it has to be used. In other words, if you aren't having to use it very often, it's probably working. Get it?
We didn't have to use it very often.
This is in a region of the country (as mentioned above, all regions are different), where club racing is super competitive and there is ALOT of contact and ALOT of totalled cars.
I think the rule works. We still have extremely close racing, but we really aren't bending much metal.
As mentioned above, maybe the 13/13 rule answers an East Coast question that isn't even being asked out west???
PS - We do bump draft in the ECHC. Quite a bit sometimes.
Bump drafting, when properly done, is harmless and typically mutually appreciated.
I think the true measure of the effectiveness of the rule is how many times it has to be used. In other words, if you aren't having to use it very often, it's probably working. Get it?
We didn't have to use it very often.
This is in a region of the country (as mentioned above, all regions are different), where club racing is super competitive and there is ALOT of contact and ALOT of totalled cars.
I think the rule works. We still have extremely close racing, but we really aren't bending much metal.
As mentioned above, maybe the 13/13 rule answers an East Coast question that isn't even being asked out west???
PS - We do bump draft in the ECHC. Quite a bit sometimes.
Bump drafting, when properly done, is harmless and typically mutually appreciated.
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Re: Informal Pole for ECHC Drivers (StageOne)
And there is plenty of that in IT racing.
And bump drafting is not a crime because it's a cooperation between two drivers. Those who actually race and have seen it used know that. There are far worse offences you can do, but I basically see this 13/13 rule as a way to further punish people who play dirty. I believe in no way this rule changes anyone's driving. People are going to see red mist and get carried away regardless and again those who race know this. The only benefit I see to the 13/13 rule allows you to punish and possibly prevent such dirty actions by *suspending* dirty drivers after they're been found guilty, not by just intimidation.
#1 got my vote. This rule is better than nothing, but I would (and do) race without it.
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Re: Informal Pole for ECHC Drivers (civicrr)
For the record, I don't bump draft, I don't lean & I don't slam the door by diving down into corners. Not that there haven't been opertunities (sp?), it just isn't my style. Gaining position 'cuz you drive like an a**hole just means you are an a**hole.
Slaming doors (legal moves) Leaning 
Its part of racing, but we are such a close group of friends, we all know its in fun.. At LMS, I was behind Franza, he slamed the door on me, and I was pretty estatic in the car, cheering his move.. It showed that the series was getting more aggressive, but still very safe, which I applaud..I would drive without the 13/13 rule, like I will be at summit tomorrow.. But I feel it is very important for the "zero tolorance" rule for the series, we are NOT made of money to rebuild cars, yet want good, clean, fun racing... At VIR for the WC race, my gut was sick from all the carnage in the Touring car race, and I would never race MY car, that I built from scratch, in a series like that...
HC needs 13/13 rule, to keep the dirty laundry out.... IMO
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Re: Informal Pole for ECHC Drivers (Hracer)
[QUOTE]And there is plenty of that in IT racing.
I really think it would not be a good idea to go there...[QUOTE]
Thats why I just left it at that. No need to ga any further.
I wasn't really referring to bump drafting. Its the small bump in a corner to get some one loose or even the more blatant punting off the course that I see as a problem. If it goes unpunished, then some will see it as normal or just a part of racing. The 13/13 rule makes it known up front, this kind of behavior will not be tolerated.
I really think it would not be a good idea to go there...[QUOTE]
Thats why I just left it at that. No need to ga any further.
I wasn't really referring to bump drafting. Its the small bump in a corner to get some one loose or even the more blatant punting off the course that I see as a problem. If it goes unpunished, then some will see it as normal or just a part of racing. The 13/13 rule makes it known up front, this kind of behavior will not be tolerated.