I hate that this is my first official thread, but I'm going to have to put the cart before the horse. I had planned (and still will) to start my rebuild-turned-into-swap story from the beginning, but after I picked up my engine yesterday, I feel I need some advice and opinions before I go any further. I'll try not to be very long winded, so here goes:
'96 Prelude, previously swapped to black top H22a before I bought it. Broke the timing belt, pulled the engine, and had no bent valves. Decided to tear it all the way down, and discovered the cylinders were too close to max tolerance to safely hone. Never smoked before, but didn't want to go through all the work of putting it back together and run the risk of it starting in another 5-10,000 miles. After consultation with a local Honda speed shop, decided to just go with an H23A VTEC and build from there. I'll post a build thread later. Picked up my motor yesterday, and it was quite beaten-up, but only showed a tiny bit of oil seepage from the vtec solenoid area and front main seal. Most sensors on the intake were broken from shipping, and a few vacuum nipples were bent. Crank accessory pulley was busted, oil pan was crushed.
Got it back to my brother-in-law's shop where I'm doing this project to perform a more thorough inspection. Pulled the valve cover and EEK! How in the hell did an engine with supposedly low miles have this much crap built up? My h22a had around 90-100k and only had a slight yellow tint. Cams and rockers show wear marks. Pulled the plugs, and they are NGK Iridiums in very good condition. Go to flip the engine to pull the pan, and it dumps out a FULL TANK full of oil! I hadn't put the valve cover back on because I assumed it would've been drained a long time ago when it was stored or at least before it was shipped. Is that normal, or am I mistaken? Anyways, little bit of sludge in the pan, no metal, nothing stuck to the drain plug. Flipped it again and pulled the timing cover. BRAND NEW GATES BELTS. WTF? And to boot, at TDC, the crank was off by a full tooth. Balance shafts were off by several teeth. Did a leakdown test. Cylinder 1 shows less than 10%, 2, 3, 4 show less than 20%. I guess I can chalk that up to the rings unseating from sitting for too long. We ran a scope down the plug holes, and the piston heads and cylinder walls looked bright and shiny. Almost no carbon, and no marks in the valve reliefs.
Can anyone offer any input as to where I should go from here? Luckily, I have all the parts from the h22 to swap over, including the head, underdrive pulley, sensors, and pan, if need be. Already have a complete OEM gasket set en route, as well as valve train, so the head will be tanked and get a valve job. Figured maybe I can run a bore dial gauge down the cylinders to make sure they are OK. I have to pull the crank girdle for the balance shaft delete, so I will inspect the bearings at the same time. Should I go ahead and have it tanked to clean out the gunk, or would it be just as suitable to run a 30 minute oil change with something like seafoam once it's back together? I have cams on my build list, but the plan is to drop them in after the car is running again, and the OBD1 conversion is complete. Should I drop in the cams from the h22 instead of the worn ones, or should I just get the valve job & head work done to the head from the h22. They are both p13.
I'm also wondering at what point, if any, I should maybe see if the shop can get the motor exchanged for another. The distributor has a 30 day start-up warranty. Don't know if that covers poor condition, if it would technically start up. And I'd rather not go through all the hassle of getting this thing put together and back in the car just to find out. I guess I'm asking what I should be angling for here? Thorough inspection, cleaning, and should be fine? Ask for an exchange now? Or would I need some evidence of mechanical failure like a bent valve, bad piston or bearing gap, bad cylinder bore specs? Or maybe I just had higher hopes and a misguided understanding of what to expect, and this kind of stuff happens. So please, feel free to chime in. I have thick skin, and a healthy budget. You can request pics of anything else as well. I'm headed back to the shop later this afternoon. Thank you!

 

Damn dude sorry to here about this, which company did you source the engine from? Also which shipping company did they use? Maybe have to file a damaged shipping claim.

99% of those start up warranties only count if you pay a legit shop to install the engine for you. Dropping the engine in yourself voids it because there may be a installation error on your part, and they dont want to cover that.

It does have a bit of build up, more so then my H23aV when I took it apart. I think its seen a few more miles then they are saying, or oil changes werent done as often as they should have been.

It is common for oil to leak from the vtec solenoid, so thats not a huge issue. My H23aV didnt come with a pulley period, do at least you got one. But that oil pan looks f*cked... Did you take off to see if it bent the pick-up inside?

Thats kinda screwy it came with the timing on the wrong tooth... If you didnt plan on using the TB it wouldnt be so bad. Still BS though, now you couldnt even resell the TB.

I would get on the phone and tell them you want a new one or a refund, and see what they say. Sound a little pissed off and tell them this is bullshit to receive something like this. Also mention you have pictures taken and ask for a email to send them to.

If you get stuck with it it would be worth taking apart and inspecting all of the bearings. Maybe put some new rings in it. Worse come to worse a little more money and some TLC should at least have it working properly for you.

 

Thank you, Sparksman. I ordered the engine through a local Honda shop. They do a LOT of swaps & custom builds, have a clean shop, and very knowledgeable and personable guys working there, so I have a good comfort level with them. They order 2-3 pallets of engines a week through the same company. They never said who, and I didn't ask, assuming that they would probably prefer not to say to keep people from undercutting them and going straight to the distributor. They do offer the 30 day warranty.
After spending pretty much all day so far doing research, and with what you've said to back up my initial impression, I called the Honda shop. I spoke to the owner and explained what I've found so far that's troubled me. I also asked that if I were to yank the head & girdle and check clearances, if it would potentially void the warranty. He said that their distributor prefers that the head hasn't been pulled, but because I have reason to suspect internal damage or excessive wear, and have pictures documenting, that he thought it was within my rights and a good idea to check to protect my investment. He said if it came down to asking for an exchange, he'd tell them that his shop did the tear-down & inspection. He also said that they've requested for years that the motors be shipped with oil in them to keep from worrying about bottom end rust & corrosion, there was no way of knowing the actual mileage, and that he thought it was a little wonky that the timing was off. At least I feel a little bit better now.
Getting ready to go buy a set of plastic gauges and head to the shop to tear this thing down. Honestly, I'll be perfectly happy with either outcome. If anyone else has anything you think I should be considering, let me know. I'll update tonight.
Oh, one more question Sparksman: did anyone ever reach a final verdict about whether the h23av oil pan was replaceable with either the h22a1 or a4 pan? I searched here and google, and never got a straight answer. Going to do a side-by-side comparison tonight as well, along with comparing depths and volumes. If no one has figured it out yet, I'll try to put an end to any debate.

 

Not looking too promising so far. Cams, journals & rockers show pretty significant wear. The blue finish is worn off, and there are grooves in all of the intake lobes & rockers. Tried to measure the primary & secondary intake lobe heights and compare it with my h22a cam, but only had manual calipers, and it's kind of a bitch to get perfect. As best we could tell, h23a cam lobes were around .001-.002 smaller. P13 head, so they should be the exact same.

Exhaust cam


Intake cam lobe grooves


Intake rocker arm wear & grooves

 

normally reputable dealers will simply put a heatstamp on the engine and if that comes off it means the engine was overheated which will void the warranty ... tho some places will force you to have someone install it not all do

given u got a 30 day warranty and it appears no major limitations i would just swap it back out

 

That looks pretty bad, and I have torn down engines with broken pistons where the head looked better! My first guess is they used crappy oil, and went way too long between changes.

If you were to keep it, and were already planning the BS delete, I would just go ahead and do new rings and bearings all around, and tank the block for good measure. FRM is damn tough stuff, so as long as there are no grooves that you can catch with a fingernail, you don't even need to hone it.

On that same thought, I would use the H22 head and cams you have, or bump it up to something like Pro1s if you have the budget for full valvetrain, ecu and tune.

Oh and the pan should be the same as any H22 or H23, if there is any difference, just use you old h22 pan and pickup tube. The girdle is the same between them, so I see no reason that it would be different. My engine used all of the H22 bottom end parts except crank and rods from an H23A1, and I have had no clearance issues.

 

Thank you for the feedback. I finished the teardown around 1am last night. Quite surprisingly, everything else was in near factory perfect shape. Rod gaps, thrust gap, crank endplay all well within new factory tolerances. They were actually at the very bottom end of all the spec ranges. Plastigauged rod and main bearings, and they were all similarly on the low end of new factory tolerances. Pulled the head, and the combustion chamber was extremely clean. So clean, in fact, that we had to scrape the intake valves and piston heads just to make sure they actually had any carbon on them at all. Cranked the pistons down and ran a bore gauge, and they, too, were inside of factory new tolerances. The highest out-of-round difference I was able to find on any given cylinder was .0004". Yes, 4/10,000ths.
Now here's the kicker: The whole reason this project turned from a rebuild of my h22a into a swap at all was because when we gauged the h22 cylinders, we thought they were .006" over max overbore tolerances. Turns out, we didn't put the correct spacer washer on the base stem of the bore gauge. Remeasured the old block, and it was actually just a tiny bit tighter than the new one. Looks like at some point, I'll fully rebuild it, and sell it complete, rather than parting it out. The downside to that is I can't really swap the head, or I just end up with an un-sellable h22 again. Also, from what I can tell, the intake ports on the h23 p13 head are much smoother and pretty much perfectly match the gasket holes. I don't know what the "factory port & polish" that everyone seems to speculate about with the PDE heads is supposed to look like, but this one looks a damn sight better than my old one. It would be an ******* move for me to pawn those cams & rockers off on someone else.

Now, as far as the build goes, valve job and valve train are planned to be done as part of the swap, with BC stg2 cams to follow after OBD1 conversion, custom harness, intake/fuel upgrades. I had planned to make sure the car was running correctly and had a working basemap and tune before I threw too many major variables into the equation. I'll post a full build thread probably this weekend, but I've done a lot of research and believe it to be a pretty comprehensive build. The only issue I have with this h23 now is the condition of the rockers. If they are worn that bad with the factory cams and single springs, more aggressive cams and stiffer springs seem to be a bad idea. Maybe I should price some oem rockers, because, honestly, if they aren't that much, it would be worth it to me to not have another 2-3 weeks of down time waiting for an exchange.

Didn't get a chance today, so the plan for tomorrow is to go to the shop that ordered it for me and show the owner the pictures I've taken and see what he has to say. If he straight up says "I'm very sorry, let's set this straight", then I'll probably go the path of least resistance and swap it. If he's on the fence, then maybe I can finagle a set of used rockers off of him. Never hurts to ask. If I do end up keeping it, then the block will either get tanked or I'll hand clean it with kerosene, and then plan on doing several short mileage oil changes with high quality synthetic. It's just a damn shame that the bottom end can be so tight and still have to deal with all that crud.

Thanks for all the input so far. You guys have been instrumental in calming my nerves and helping me solidify my approach to dealing with this. I'll update tomorrow, and hopefully have enough time to post a quick thread showing off the headers and valve cover I picked up from getting ceramic coated at Jet-Hot this afternoon.

 

Well, this keeps getting better and better. I finally reached the straw that broke the camel's back. Finally got all of the necessary parts in, and had a few days this week to try and get this thing done. Sourced a complete rocker set off of Craigslist for $30. Yesterday, gutted the head and took it to a machine shop to pressure test and put new valve seals in. Before I had left the shop, the guy who took it to the back told me I needed to take a look, because it had bent valves. I learned 2 things:

1) You can use a water hose and spray down the ports to do a quick leak test.

2) My concept of what a bent valve should look like was not in line with reality.

No need to do a full pressure test, as this is obviously going to require a full valve job and at least 4-5 new valves. I guess that timing belt being off by a tooth really did eff things up. Called the shop, and then sent a lengthy email with lots of pictures last night. Waiting to see if it's going to be a replacement or a reimbursement for repairs. At this point I really don't care. I just want to have a running engine in my car again. The wife is starting to get pissed that I keep stealing hers. I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that this doesn't turn into some huge Judge Judy ish.

 

Most warrantys are only if u have a professional shop drop it in I believe if u do it urself u will void that warranty. My personal advice whould be to consult with the seller and foward pictures of the damage upon receiving the engine and get it swapped out for one in a better shape good luck with what ever route u choose to take..

 

Try to get a new engine from where ever you bought it from.

 

I recieved a H23 in poor condition from a place. It had rust inside the valve cover for God's sake. This was considered a warranty issue only if an ASE tech first installed it and there was a problem at start up. Bullshit. I'd also have to pay for return shipping.

The ONLY reason I could force them to take it back is because there was a sticker on the motor that indicated the timing belt was dne at the equivalent of 80k miles. Their website guaranteed that all motors have under 60k.

They hardballed me for 3 days saying I have to install the motor first (via an ASE tech) and had to jump thru a thousand hoops. And they wanted me to pay for shipping.

I told them to go s#&t f#&k their own d#&ks and to suck on my b##ls. I said either they give me back my money and take their **** motor back the easy way...or I would tell Chase bank (I paid via CC for a reason) that I was scammed, get my refund thru them, and badmouth the company ALL over the internet. I told them they were in no position to negotiate because it wouldn't be as easy to dismiss chase bank about a money issue.

They kept offering me garbage deals like paying for $100 worth of rebuild costs???!?!?!

Im lucky they left that 80k mile sticker on there and that i have a friend who can read japanese. They ended up refunding me fully including my original shipping cost, and paying for the motor to be shipped back after 3 days of email arguing. I won't mention their name because that was part of the agreement.

Anyway, I was just saying the otjer day to someone that a lot of H23's come beat up. H22/23's are worth buying from a more reputable source. I've always had good luck with jdmenginescorp.com and hmotors. Customer service would make or break your experience. Jdmenginescorp.com is affordable, they always send me good looking/running motors, and they'll work with you if a problem arises. There's no more of a "sure thing" than H motors, but the price does reflect that.

H23's seem like fleet vehicle engines that get bad maintenance in Japan. I've installed a few beat looking ones with high mileage. And one or 2 good looking ones.