Alright, so i have an h23 intake mani without the plenum, a p12 which was a pain in the *** to find for some reason, an a6 cam, and I know this doesn't do much but a short air intake from my buddies a4. So what gains (if any) will I see in my f22 after I slap these on? and why will I see gains?

 

Well, being there are an *** load of F22 variants, it's going to be hard to say...

oh boy...

 

I mean no one has given me an exact reason of why I'll see any gains in power. Also it's an a4 that I'll be putting this on.

 

You already have a thread talking about this same subject don't you?

Now that you have these parts. What do you plan on doing with the H23 runners without the upper plenum? I'm not 100% but I don't think the H23 runners bolt up to the F22A head all that well. Why did you get the P12 ECU and not the PT6?

As far as power goes
P12 ECU with an F22A1 engine = 135hp
PT6 ECU with an F22A6 engine = 150hp

You would be much better off with a PT6 ECU suing an A6 camshaft. The P12 is an upgrade from the PT3, however with the A6 camshaft still not the most potential.

 

You probably lost power with the intake. Unless you're talking about an Audi A4, then tehfuk. You won't notice anything too powerful unless you go turbo, that's basically it with the F's.

 

I'm pretty much a virgin to all of this. But I've asked around and nearly everyone has told me to put an h23 intake manifold onto my f22a4. They said the plenum wont bolt on so I didn't have to worry about getting that and the rest should fit. But this is all that people have been telling me to do and I got the intake manifold for nearly nothing, a friend gave it to me from his little "collection".

 

alright, well I'll ditch the p12 and get a pt6 whenever one comes by, but I got it without the plenum because someone said it wont bolt to the tb. But I don't know. I'll make sure to look more into this and learn a little more as I go before I swap intake mani's.

 

That can't be true that the P12 only makes 135. If you get the tubular 4-2-1 header and downpipe it makes at least 140. And a Pt6 Ecu with F22a6 engine doesn't make 150 HP it makes 140 HP.

From the factory the F22a6 makes 140 HP, where did you get that extra 10 HP from, stickers?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_F...ecifications_5


I say get the A6 cam + springs, the H23 intake manifold (with butterflies removed), ebay header and 2.25" exhaust, test pipe cat. converter, a CAI or SRI, remove the balance shaft belt, get the P12 ECU, and you're looking at probably 150-160 HP.

 

Did your butt-dyno tell you that?

 

Well, I already have the h23 intake mani without the plenum, but if i need it I can get it like in the next hour. got the a6 cam and now I'll get some springs to match it.

 

Its a close estimate I think. The f22a4 made 5 more HP over the A1 because of the tubular downpipe, so with the P12 ECU that's already 140 HP. Add the A6 cam, H23 IM and all the rest, you end up with about what I said.... By estimation, but a close estimation. 150-160 HP.

 

Not even close, unless you are talking crank horse power. A P12 will not put 150-160 to the ground with those mods.... A PT6 would get you closer, a chipped and tuned OBD1 ECU might be close to those numbers....

I know you rebuilt your own engine and all but I highly doubt that classifies you as an expert in things Honda. not that I am but I have seen a few dynos that will show you that 150-160 and those mods is only attainable with a tune. Please don't post a link to your favorite CB7 H23 intake thread because that 150 was not on a stock ECU.

Please leave your butt dyno opinions out of a tech oriented forum!

 

Of course, we were talking about crank HP not wheel HP to begin with. You were speaking of crank HP when you said an a6 manifold and pt6 ecu would get you 150 HP. Why you gotta change to wheel HP now?

 

OK so you were talking crank HP as well. So after all of the mods that you suggested the OP might see a gain of how much over a stock A6? 10 crank hp. Wow!.... hold me back from spending my money and time on that huge gain.

Tuned ECU is the only real way to gain any HP from adding significant mods. A P12 isn't any more compared to a PT6.

Run a dyno or a 1320 pass and prove me wrong! I don't want to E-Race with you any more!

 

Yeah, I agree 10Hp isn't much but its a lot if you are stock.

So you mean you could ECU tune the engine with just bolt on's that I mentioned? Doesn't tuning lower gas mileage a lot though?

There's this guy on Ebay selling tunable Ecu's, I don't know if it will work though.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/OBD1-NON-VTEC-ECU-CHIPPED-CUSTOM-MAP-P05-P06-P75-PR4-B18-B18b-B20-Turbo-Honda-/180749745906?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Make%3AHonda&hash=item2a15863ef2&vxp=mtr

 

Yes, adding more air to an engine would benefit from a tune. No, tuning does not have to lower your MPG when the tuner knows what they are doing. There is no need to raise the fuel or change the ignition during cruise or idle situations if the need isn't there.

I've tuned a few boosted cars that actually got better than stock MPG while cruising on the highway. Stay out of boost/off the gas and no need for more fuel.


There are many reputable chipping companies out there that I would suggest over buying a chipped ecu from ebay. Xenocron.com or Phearable.net would be much better resources for tunable ECU's. You will also require the necessary hardware and software in order to tune.

 

The h23 intake won't do you any good without the plenum and throttle body. The runners are virtually the same length. Don't waste your time with the a6 valve springs unless you are at least running a delta cam. If your really gonna spend the time and effort installing a cam and springs then you might as well go bigger than an a6 cam. And lastly... Listen to Ghost when he preaches about the need and benefits of a tune. Pherable.net did a great job getting me set up with a basemap on my build. And lastly, don't listen to ANYTHING Mishako says. His track record speaks for itself.

 

So, what would be the best bang for the buck hardware wise? So all I would have to do basically is get a chipped ECU, Hondata (or some other similar hardware), and then software so I can load basemaps onto the Hondata?

 

Ok here's what you wanna do if you plan on making good street power on a budget. First make sure your engines healthy. At the very least do a compression test. Next, invest in a bisimoto stage 1 or 2 cam, springs, and intake gasket. Third, use the WHOLE H23 intake manifold. Now at this point you order a chipped po6 from phearable.net... They have my map on file so it shouldn't take them long to ship. 2 weeks later when you have ALL these parts... Buy a valve cover gasket and timing belt kit. Finally install everything and enjoy. If you know anything about working on your engine then this job should only take about 3 hours on the high side. I can do it in 20 minutes with the engine out of the car and about 45 minutes in.

 

How much does that usually cost at phearable and how many horses does it make? And which was it, stage 1 or 2 cam?
Would you recommend removing the balance belt?
My intake gasket melted so I had to use a regular one : (
I have almost the exact same setup as you list excluding only the cam and springs, that's gonna be a little pricey for me right now. What I would do personally is get the A6 springs and the Stage 1 cam. The A6 springs for reliability reasons cause I heard you don't have to get stiffer springs with the stage 1 cam its just a good idea... Then again if I had the money I would get the stage 2 cam and the springs and retainers.
I also heard that its kinda a waste of money to get the stage 1 cam cause the A6 cam is almost the exact same thing.


Dayum, I was looking at Bisi's site and the stage 3 grind was $749.99. Compare that to the stage 2 for $269.99.
Why such a difference?

 

Without looking at his site I'm going to guess that the stage 1 & 2 are cam regrinds whereas the stage 3 is probably an entirely new cam.

 

Regrind vs a hardweld

regrind they remove material to change the profile. Hardweld is adding material then recutting/grinding.

Read: close to stock profile vs radically different

 

Price varies depending on services and products. I sent them the ecu to be chipped and basemapped. The initial map was overly rich so i had to order a modified map and that alone was an additional $43. It's still a tad rich but a lot better and i can atleast drive it now. As far as power goes... I haven't had it dyno'd but with all that plus a new clutch and 8lb flywheel i pull hard on my brother in his nearly stock accord. He only has an a6 cam, cheap intake and filter, and a header. There's a few guys on cb7tuner with the same style build that are making between 160-175ish horsepower at the wheels. Not exactly a huge improvement over stock but it gives the civic guys a run for their money

 

160-17ish horsepower yes, but what about torque? Its torque that we want. The F22a is known for having more torque than HP cause it has a longer stroke. Is that still the case when you make an NA build or does the TQ go lower than the HP like the H22 does?

Btw you never gave me a real price for what the ECU tune would cost altogether.

 

I would turbo my accord but im afraid of blowing it up cause its got stock pistons and rings. They are new pistons are rings though cause I overhauled it out and put .50 OS pistons and rings in it. They are Silvolite pistons and OEM rings, not 20 year old parts so they would hold up better than your build probably. How long do you expect your engine to last until it blows up? I read someone say about stock turbos, "The more boost you run, the faster it will BLOW" hehehe.

I would only turbo if I had another daily driver, I really think that natural aspiration is the only thing I should aim for right now for reliability reasons. Unless I hear otherwise, Deev on Cb7tuner and some others over there said stock bottom end boots usually break ringlands and its never a question of IF but WHEN. Even if you run low boost.