Alright, I'm starting this thread after recently running my car up on the dyno with the new GSC cams. I experienced a couple of issues while on the dyno, and unfortunately ran into head lift at 20psi before getting around to adjusting cam gears to see if I could regain torque over my previous ITR cams.

I've created this thread to start discussions related to my particular set up and for advise/recommendations.


Quick run down on the engine set up:

Electronics
HKS EVC-6 Boost Controller
Autometer Gauges (Boost, Oil Temp, Oil Pressure, Water Temp)
PLX Wideband Gauge
Link KnockLink G4 Detonation Monitor
AEM 3.5 Bar Map Sensor
Summit Racing Digital Capacitive Discharge Ignition Box
MSD Distributor Rotor
MSD Pro Distributor Cap
Mallory External Coil
NGK 7mm Spark Plug Leads - OEM Spec
Auto Meter Oil Pressure Warning Switch
Auto Meter Mini Pro Warning Light
Hondata S300


Engine
B18C Blacktop head (GSR)
GSC Power Division T1 Cams
Supertech DR Dual Valve Springs
Supertech Titanium Retainers
Supertech Intake Valves (Stock size)
Supertech Inconel Exhaust Valves (Stock size)
Supertech Bronze Valve Guides
Supertech valve locks
Buddyclub Adjustable Cam Gears
BDL Billet Cam cap
ARP Head Studs
Darton MID Sleeves (0.5mm oversize)
JE 81.5mm 9.0:1 CR pistons
JE Piston Rings
Eagle H Beam Rods
OEM Honda Bearings
OEM Intake/Exhaust valve stem seals
OEM Crack tested Crank
OEM Honda Oil Pump
Toda 80mm Oil Pump gear
OEM Honda Head Gasket
OEM Honda VTEC solenoid filter
OEM Honda Cam seals
OEM Honda Spark plug seals
OEM Honda Oil pickup gasket
OEM Honda VTEC dowel o-ring
OEM Honda Rear crank seal
OEM Honda Rocker cover gasket
OEM Honda Sump gasket
OEM Honda Cambelt
OEM Honda Tensioner
OEM Honda water pump
OEM Honda Strainer
ARP Flywheel bolts
ARP Main Studs
ATI Super Damper
Moroso 5 Trap Door Baffled Sump
B18C Flywheel
Dual Friction Clutch Plate
Uprated Pressure plate 3020lbs
Blox ITR Style Intake Manifold
Stock Throttle Body taper bored to 64mm
AEM Billet Fuel Rail
AEM Fuel Pressure Regulator
Injector Dynamics 1000cc Injectors
Russell Performance Fuel Pressure gauge
Russell Performance -6 Stainless Braided Fuel Feed Line
RSL Intercooler Piping
Tial Q 50mm BOV
Tial MV-S Wastegate
Garrett GT3076r 4" Antisurge intake, 0.63 3" GT Exh Housing
3" RSL Downpipe to 3" Exhaust
RSL Ramhorn Manifold
60mm Alloy Half Size Radiator with AN fittings welded on
Innovative Billet Engine Mounts
Long Oil Cooler
Permacool Oil Thermostat
-10 Oil Cooler lines and fittings
Deatschwerks DW301 in tank fuel pump


Now, a little history on my build. I originally started with a long block I bought off a local auction site. This motor was freshly built and still on run in km's with all receipts supplied. The motor consisted of a B18c (GSR) long block, stock sleeves, JE pistons, Eagle Rods, ITR cams and *shudder* an aluminium light weight crank pulley. I'll cut the story short, kept the long block, pieced together a completely new turbo kit, had the motor power tuned, made my goal of 300wkw (415whp) 3000km's of driving later and and at the 2nd track day the oil pump shattered down the back straight of the fastest track in the country.

I've kept the head and fully rebuilt it with new valve train, scrapped the block and started with a fresh block which I had sleeved and am running the old pistons and rods.

As the GSC cams came out just over a year ago when I was piecing together this new build, I had to jump at them for this new build. Fast forward a year later, the motor is now built, run in tune went well, I noticed the turbo was a loot more responsive down low at 5-10% throttle even on this run in tune, however I wasn't experiencing the characteristics the GSC cams are now known for, such as the lumpy idle and bugger all vacuum they pull at idle. I had a smooth idle which was only temporarily lumpy some times when coming to a stop at traffic lights. Vacuum was pulling 13.5in Hg at 1000rpm and the car started and idled fine with only a minor adjustment to the IACV duty cycle on my old tune which was running ITR cams.


After reading the recent issues CaliDad has experienced with the cams on his set up and the fact we both ended up with very similar degree settings (+3 exh, -5.7 intake) and reading what other users were saying about the characteristics of cams, I was sure something wasn't right here. By this time I had my power tune booked, trailer hire and accommodation booked for the 8 1/2 trip down to the other end of the north island, so I went ahead with it all.
I mentioned the characteristics of the cams to my tuner and that I wasn't seeing these, so had two options. Run the car up on the dyno and make adjustments, or go over the degreeing of the cams before hitting the dyno. As it was a Friday and prior commitments were made on the Friday night and Saturday by the tuner, I decided to run the car up on the dyno and make adjustments from what we were seeing with the power band.
Unfortunately we ran into head lift issues at 20psi after a couple of runs before we were able to start adjusting cam gears. Below is a comparison of my old tune/motor on:





Blue = 7psi creeping to 9.5psi
Green = 15psi
Red = 20psi

Yellow = New motor with GSC's, 17psi creeping to 20psi.

Now when I say new motor, it is a new motor, however the only things that have changed that should affect power are:
- Removed high flow Cat from exhaust
- Block is sleeved
- GSC Cams
- New ignition set up compared to stock ignition


So from here, my plans are:
- Pull the motor, back to my engine builders to check head and block surfaces
- New headgasket (OEM Honda), new head studs (Which ones?)
- Check v2v clearances with the GSC's and chuck them in at 0-0 on cam gears. Assuming these will need to be advanced slightly to account for head/block surfacing?

I want to see if these GSC cams are going to work in my set up with a smaller turbo than most others are running, and whether they can give me a better torque curve and hold the torque longer than the previous ITR cams.

The engine bay as it currently sits:

 

Right, so question 1.

The ARP head studs in this new motor are from my old motor, in hindsight this was a bad move and is probably the reason for my head lift issues. I've got a new set of standard ARP head studs here for a factory rebuild on my ITR motor I'm currently doing (Part #208-4303).

Should I run with these or are these better options such as
Golden Eagle: http://www.goldeneaglemfg.com/index....roducts_id=203
InlinePro: http://www.inlinepro.com/s1/p-252-in...ead-studs.aspx

Remember, I'm going to need to get a new set of studs regardless, so if there are better options than the standard ARP's, I'm going for it. Power goal is safely max out the GT3076r on 98 pump gas, so no more than 500whp as a figure.

I'll also replace the ARP rod bolts while I'm at it for insurance, as these were also from the last motor.


Question 2.

Should I consider o-ringing the block? I'm running Darton MID sleeves, will this help considerably? I'm only going to be running a maximum of 24-25psi at this stage.

 

I personally like my Golden Eagle studs. I dont like that the ARP's bottom out on the threads. You shouldnt have head lift with studs reguardless of brand being used. Are you sure you didnt just pop the gasketn or sink a sleeve ? who did the darton MID's for you ?

Dont touch the rod bolts there is nothing wrong with them, thats nonsense to replace them. You don't need to oring the block for 500hp. stock sleeves 550hp i didnt have any HG problems. If your having HG problems you have a sleeve issue. I had a Darton MID block years ago doen by local machine shop. sleeves sank. If not done correctly this happens. Cost me a lot of money and ended up taking the bastard to court because he kept taking my money and not fixing the problem.

What turbocharger is in this car? what wastegate ?

 

i've had both studs, the GE pieces seemed a little nicer but the ARPs will still get the job done


so ive been reading all of this stuff and while I will still degree the cams, since Im running a stock valve motor (but ported to hell and back lol) I think (based on others numbers) and that my block and head have not been surfaced (although I'll remove as little material as possible just to give the gasket something to stick to)
or if I check both block and head with a dial indicator, flat bar w/ feelers and both are flat, I'll simply give both surfaces a little hand love to give them some biting surface


and given that im only running a "mild 10-10.5:1 CR" with very large, deep valve pockets. I done forsee any piston to valve issues, opinions?


and what the hell happened to this thread over the last few days lol?

 

this isnt the gsc thread Wantboost its his own thread lol

 

Looks like a nice setup g0at.

How many times have you reused those ARP studs ?

Wantboost - are you tripping today sir ??

 

Not only that, but look at the threads of the block themselves. If its been tightened down too many times, even if you've changed headstuds, there's the possibility that the threads in the block itself may be stripped. So check both as you replace head studs.. If the holes in block are stripped, you'll need to timesert them (Not helicoil) to keep your sleeved block. It works, its been done, and it keeps the value of your sleeved block. (I've done it myself already.)

 

Turbo-LS: All parts are listed in the first post, Tial MV-S Wastegate, Garrett GT3076r 4" Antisurge intake, 0.63 3" GT Exh Housing.
Why should I not touch the rod bolts? They would have had a few torque downs too, as they're from the old motor. While the motors out they're a lot easier to get at and I'd hate to throw a rod after all this effort because I've overlooked something as simple as reused bolts in a part that spins so fast.

Rich7777: To be honest I wouldn't know how many times they've been torqued, but it would be a minimum of 3 times at least. At least once in the first motor, and at least twice in the current motor as the valves were clayed for piston clearance. Who knows, they could have a fair few more torque downs than that.

TheShodan: Cheers for the advise. Will have them look at the threads, but I'm hoping the threads are fine, as it was an unopened factory motor I started with this time round.

The sleeves were done by a local shop who have done a few sleeved Honda blocks. I wouldn't take it anywhere else in New Zealand as sleeving is a job that needs to be done right the first time and they've had experience with the darton sleeves. They sleeved the block that ran the fastest FWD quarter mile time in Australasia back in the early 2000's and that motor is still going strong, now in a street driven car.
Sinking sleeves are sure a possibility, but I hope like damn hell it's not the case, just stretched head studs, which looks more like a possibility as they would've been torqued down a few times at minimum. The motor still runs healthy and there's no oil in the coolant and I'll be dropping the oil today when I pull the motor. We were only experiencing head lift on higher boost too, 14-18psi didn't appear to have any issues.


I've read good things about the GE head studs so looks like I'll order some of them in.

 

I'll be building a similar setup soon but with a Full Race Ramhorn and Tial 44 MVR. Hopefully I won't get the boost creep you are experiencing trying to run 6PSI max.

 

On the EVC make sure that the gain setting isn't too close to target boost on the boost controller. That seems to be more your issue for the creep than any manifold/ turbo combination. When they are too close together, they cause a creeping issue just from the settings. I'll see if I can elaborately e with what I mean via PM

 

i was tired, I had this and the gsc thread open side by side, got confused lol

 

Right, quick update on this.

New studs, and all that jazz to hopefully resolve head lift issue. Cams set to factory spec on cam gears and timing marks line up bang on near perfect at TDC.

Here's what my idle now sounds like at 1050rpm. This is the first start up, still running rich at 12.1 AFR, still to be tuned. Sounding a lot more promising now, pulling 7inHg at idle too.


Off for tuning next!

 

THAT's how its supposed to sound!!! YEA!!! Idle video!!

Dyno day for me at 1080rpms.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPCaO...ature=youtu.be

You'll notice a better curve transitionally in-between gearing and it has the engine move the smaller turbocharger at a lower rpm. Hard to copy on a "dyno", but you'll see the differences when you actually drive the car and not just on the dyno in one gear. Remember, its a "snapshot" of what's going on, and doesn't always tell the full story.

 

Right, so an update on this thread.

Departed on the 8 1/2 hour drive down the country for another attempt at the power tune on Sunday morning and arrived in Wellington at 5pm. Unhooking the tralier and the ground starts shaking, then gets more and more violent swaying side to side. My old man and I looked at each other with the "oh ****" look. Turns out it was a 6.5 magnitude quake situated in the Cook Straight just south of Wellington.

First thing on Monday morning, we trailed the car around to the tuners literally around the corner from where we were staying and bolted the car down on the dyno. After some initial calibrations, we started on 14psi power runs.

After some adjustments to fuel and timing, we ended up with 320kw (430hp) at the wheels on 14psi, creeping to 15psi in the upper rev range. My jaw dropped at this figure as I previously made 305wkw (409hp) with the same turbo setup on my last motor at 20psi. This is a whole new motor, however it's still an 81.5mm bore, stock B18c crank motor, even using the same pistons from my old motor. All turbo gear is the same, the only changes are sleeved block, GSC cams and supertech DR valvetrain with factory valve sizes.

Upping the boost to 18psi immediately ran into running the dyno into the red zone once full boost was hit. We then had to swap from the FWD hub dyno to the rear wheel drive dyno before any more pulls were made, otherwise the FWD dyno would just shut down. This put a massive smile on my face as my previous motor did all pulls on the FWD dyno, even at 20psi.

We did another run on the RWD dyno on 14psi and ended up with a power figure of 305wkw, 15wkw less than what the FWD dyno was reading. Upping the boost to 18psi again netted 320wkw again, and further upping the boost to 22.5psi we cracked 351wkw which was the overall power goal for this build on pump gas. The tuner reckons we're sitting around 365wkw, but they're just peak numbers and the amount of torque the thing has and how soon on that torque comes on is enough to put a smile a mile wide on my face.

After all the tuning was complete the next day, I took the car for a quick drive around the block on low boost, back on the trailer and headed back to Auckland for another 8 1/2 hour drive.

I stopped off ~50km off home and unloaded the car from the tralier to have a bit of a feel for the thing on the motorway. On low boost of 14psi cruising at 100k, the engine sits at 3400rpm. Slightly crack the throttle and it pulls instantly. Put your foot down and it pretty much instantly hits the boost bubble and sits you back in the seat in 5th gear.

I did a couple of 4th gear pulls till ~5500rpm, one on 14psi which just gripped and pulled, the other I flicked to 18psi and this instantly lit the wheels up at 100k and the car disappeared in a stream of smoke. I've currently got some very average 17" rubber on the car just to get it moving, so will be putting some decent sticky rubber on when hub conversion and brake upgrade is complete.

I haven't even hit VTEC with the GSC cams yet, there's just SOO much mid range poke to it there hasn't been any need. We don't really have highway racing over in New Zealand like you guys do in the states, and I don't fancy being licenceless and having my car impounded finding out how well it really goes. I'll leave that for the track.

Overall, I'm fully stoked to have reached my peak power goal with the small .63 exhaust housing, but even more stoked at how punchy the GSC cams have made the car. It's completely transformed the car to what it was previously. I'll update this in a couple of days after I've been out on a decent drive in it around some twisties, but I'm just amazed how much swapping out cams have changed it.

I'd like to thank TheShodan for all the advice he's given which also convinced me to stick to the GSC cams and see them through, they're a bloody good cam even for a smaller frame turbo like the GT3076r!

While the below graph doesn't give a 100% comparison on power differences, it gives you a good idea. Thin lines appear to read 15kw higher than the thick lines.

Thin blue: ITR cams 7psi creping to 9.5psi
Thin green: ITR cams 15psi
Thin red: ITR cams 20psi

Thick red: GSC cams 14psi creeping to 15psi
Thick green: GSC cams 18psi
Thick blue: GSC cams 22.5psi

 

Good stuff and great numbers!

I am thinking long and hard about these cams. Once I get my transmission issues resolved I may have to pick up a set of these cams.

Thanks for posting the update!

 

I'm liking that last set of plots.

 

I'm really glad it turned out well! I like the fact you're using a GT30R for it. that boost/rpm curve is what makes me smile.

 

Shodan, hes hitting 20psi 2k rpm sooner than I am!
GT3076R-13, 60 trim compressor with S cover and .82 A/R turbine ATP Vband housing.

 

Same is true for my setup. Comparing the OP's old 20psi boost plot it looks similar to my 20 psi plot. If I could get full boost 1-2k earlier...holy crap!

 

I didn't pick up much spool from going from ITR to GSC T1 cams. But my setup is clearly more laggy for other reasons.

 

Again, I'm also thinking it was his boost controller. He's using an HKS EVC VI, which has a "gain" feature that the other Hondata guys are just now starting to understand (as its in beta testing). The thing is the MAC solenoid doesn't have a stepper motor to move fast enough as the GREddy, AVC-R and HKS "fanboy" EBCs that people dismiss on this forum. They make a BIG difference, outside of the laptop-based boost control that most use in Honda-world.

I'm reaching 20psi at about the same rate as g0at, but I also have a GReddy EBC set at .60BAR gain, and I'm 4lbs/min larger than he is.

As for Brian.. I'm thinking both manifold and possibly boost controller, but its hard to say in your case.

@g0at, what are your gain settings at on the EVC VI?, or is it set to "automatic" like the GReddy?

 

I didn't catch the boost control difference. Any idea if the Hondata quick spool will help with that? I have just started messing around with it and it seems like it does spool quicker but it is hard for me to tell. First I was having electrical issues and now the transmission is toast. I haven't really gotten to enjoy the car a lot since it made the 470 lol.

 

So wait.. GSC's aren't a bad cam when people actually set them properly? Holy ****..

who would have thought?!


Great job g0at.

 

 

Again, its still in the beta stage. That "quick spool" seems to try to work with the MAC solenoid, but honestly, I think the solenoid itself is too limited. This is where the "JDM Fanboys" of GReddy, HKS, and APex'i, had an advantage. No BBG, but LOTS of toys to play with when it came to helping the turbocharger move more quickly..

Basically Hondata is starting to catch up with areas of boost control (sadly on a laptop) that have been well-developed for over a decade already by other companies. .. Better late than never I guess.

Ya damn skippy I'm gloatin'... I rarely get the opportunity so I do it when I can.. Good job again g0at