first off before anyone jumps in and says why 9000.
personal preference, i like a high revving motor. once the basics are settled i will chose the cams that suit the power best.

im well aware of what parts are need to be upgraded the question is about brand/ specific design that will be most reliable in this aplication.

although im using supertech valves in my current build i have a feeling they are not designed for 9000rpm and agressive cams with high CR

anyone with personal experience share their information would be great that way i know what i need to get and start saving up beforehand for the proper parts.

but please NO OPINIONS.( if you have one then back it up with some correct info and not a sales broshure from the company)


i would like to know about the following parts:
im talking about well known brands not ebay knockoffs obviously
parts that you can buy at speed shops and from sponsors here and other online stores.
but also not including extremely custom and exotic parts that are priced way above the competition.

valves stock ITR or aftermarket
valve guides stock or aftermarket/bronze recommended?
valve springs
retainers and keepers
cam gears? do they matter( among major brands only no ebay)
timing belt
T belt tensioner
rods
pistons
main/rod bearings honda or aftermarket
oil pump and water pump
crank pulley

again i would like people or shops that dealt with alot of builds and can speak from personal experience.

alot of the threads talk about what parts need to be upgraded but dont really talk about the quality of parts

 

I'll give my .02 on springs and retainers the skunk2 ones claim to be able to handle 10K+ so if you're a skunk fan. here's the articale on skunks website http://store.skunk2.com/engine-tunin...e-springs.html as for keepers supertech makes them don't know if anyone else makes them.

 

I have a 1.8 lsvtec that sees 9000rpm on a daily basis. The springs and retainers are supertech. The springs have 85lb seat pressure and the retainers are titanium. I highly reccomend them. These springs are their turbo valve spring model which have 10lb of extra seat pressure I think. Part # SPR-H100DR . I have stock valves, aswell as stock retainers. The cam gears are AEM 3bolt ones. In which I upgraded to stronger and grade 10bolts. Timing belt is gates racing Kevlar one. With gsr oil pump and stock tensioner. I'm using 81.5mm pr3 pistons with the side skirt coated by calico. And stock rods with arp rod bolts. Bearings are made by ACL . Oil and water pump stock. Crank pulley is OEM. I wouldnt reccommend using a lightweight one as I hear destroys the harmonic balance and destroys bearings and oil pumps. I also have skunk2 stage 2 cams. I made 211whp and 145wtq. I've misshited quite a few times 10,000+ rpms and motor is strong as day one %100

 

NOTE:
This is coming from a H series point of view which has a stock rev limiter of 7800.

did you actually measure the seat pressure? I ask this because there are a few things that can change the advertised seat pressure such as how many time the valve seats have been cut and where the locks are in relation to the valve used. For instance, big cam (per sae) engines like mine spinning to 10k rpm are going to need more seat pressure than what the Pro series springs offer off the shelf. This is all common practice in the V8 world. If you can control the valves at that RPM, you can actually pick up power. Instead of the valve bouncing off the seat due to valve float, you get a perfect seal.

When you are spinning an engine that high, its hard to say "do this or use these parts and it will survive." Thats simply isnt true. 9000rpm is a lot and regardless what someone says or how they are advertised, you can't take parts off the shelf and expect them to do what you need them to do off the shelf. This is the "building" aspect of building an engine. If you are just buying parts and putting them in the engine, you are not building it, you are just assembling it and hoping.

I learned dearly that harmonics play a HUGE role in spinning engines in the upper realm. If the bottom end is not balanced properly, it will literally, internally start to come apart. This is why you hear of people breaking oil pumps...etc, IMO. The hardened gears are added insurance but its not going to stop an imbalanced engine from breaking them. When getting your rotating assembly balanced, it is very important to have the damper, gears, clutch and flywheel assembly attached to it. Doing the crank by itself simply isnt enough and I think that was another downfall to my race motor.

Bearing clearancing is huge as well and depending on how long you want the engine to last, can play a vital role in longevity as well as power. At those RPM, the bottom end has to be fed enough oil to maintain the boundary layer between the bearing and the crank. Of course, you know that the higher you spin the engine, the more heat is created and this causes things to expand at larger proportions. You have to take your bearing clearances into consideration here. Not only your rods, but your mains as well. For race motors, you may even be running outside the realm of honda specs (especially if you are using an AL rod). Remember that your mains feed the rods. If your clearance is there for the rods but you came up short on the mains, the rods will still suffer.
I like using Honda bearings but you cant always get the clearance you are looking for with them which is the nice thing about the ACL race bearings.

Now about the harmonic balancers, I know there are plenty of people are using OEM balancers. I was too and I cant really discredit using them because I dont think it had anything to do with my engine failure. However, the harmonics at 7800 (stock H22 fuel cut) and 9000-10000 I can assure you are very different. I dont have any technical data on that but its only common technical sense.

When it comes down to it, its all about the complete package if you want the engine to survive and do well at it but that comes at a price. You can't overlook something simple and just say it will be ok. This is especially hard for the guys that are forced to put their trust in machine shops and performance shops to do things right. They dont always have the tools or understanding to double check their work and keep them honest.

 

how many miles and how long do you keep it in higher RPM.

does anyone actually test those parts?

 

98vtec are you talking about blueprinting and ballancing like spoon does or you talking about spectrum analyser/oscilloscope and such to show harmonics and resonance spots for each rpm/load?
i know even for internal hard drives 7200 rpm is standart and 10000rpm is very high

 

Fwiw, I've run my stock bottom end itr motor to 9200-9500 for 40k miles.
I only had cams and valvetrain upgraded (all Toda parts).

IMO, pnp the head but as the old one says: rpm = ruins people's motors.

 

isnt type r bottom end allanced to 10000rpm?

 

I'm no expert but here is my Daily setup that I built roughly 3 years ago. This cost me roughly $2500+/- machine work, parts, and tune. Assembled by me, installed with the help of a few friends. I've only done oil changes on this motor since it was finished.

GSR head
Pro 1
Supertech springs
MFactory cam gears
Blox intake manifold and 68mm tb
Stock everything else on the head
B18a block
PR3 81.5
ARP head/rod bolts
Factory B16 oil/water pumps & stock everything else
Unorthodox race crank pulley and 8lb flywheel
B16 cable trans
All gaskets from local auto parts store

I don't quite remember but the head was milled 5thous but I don't remember the block, but it was milled twice. So I'm guessing high 11 to low 12 compression. Piston to wall was to honda spec (for a b16 motor if that matters), piston rings are gap to stock spec, the main and rod bearing are at 15thous but #4 rod is at 20.

The motor put out 200whp and 137wtq with the basic I/H/E bolt on. The tuner said that it was still making power above 9krpm but decided to stay at that. I take it to 7.5-8k at most. I've have put about a good 30k+/- miles on the motor and it still runs just as good as day one. Once every 3-4 weeks in the summer I take a 300+mile round trip spirited driving through the mountain pass at 4k-6krpm or a long open freeway drive at 4.5krpm for roughly an hour+ with your daily mix stop and go drive.
With this setup I have to ride the clutch a little more (maybe due to the lighten pulley and flywheel) but other than that it is very responsive and very fun to drive.

I think having a great machine shop, great tuner, and good clearance will help with a reliable high rpm motor.

 

I had my stock bottem end JDM ITR to 9100 a bunch of times and prob around 20k miles. Had only cam and valvetrain upgrades. JUN3 and BLOX VS, Retainers

 

valves stock ITR or aftermarket - Stock Valves outflow any other valve except Ferrea.

valve guides stock or aftermarket/bronze recommended? - Stock are fine replace with
Supertech if they need replacing.

valve springs - I run Blox VT 9k no problems so far, Supertech is Cheap Online and they are "reliable"

retainers and keepers - Ret's you should go same brand as VS or you can use OEM K20 which is Steel instead of Ti with supertech VS Has been done and works.

cam gears? - Any Proven brand will works Except Older AEM.

timing belt - Gates Racing / Toda

T belt tensioner - Stock

rods - Stock with ARP Rodbolts will Suffice, Go forged if you go Forged Pistons.

pistons - JDM ITR pistons, Forged Gives you more p2v usually and allows for aggressive tuning, CP off the shelf are the best imo.

main/rod bearings honda or aftermarket - Cant go Wrong with stock Honda Bearings, ACL Race "x" works too,they give looser clearances and they are one size fits all, It's up to your engine builder tbh.

oil pump and water pump - Stock ITR

crank pulley - Please Stay Stock.. dont go Solid.

 

It depends on the technology you are limited to. Blueprinting and balancing goes a long way but there is more to blueprinting an engine than just the bottom end basics. Im not aware of spoons process so i dont know.

I just know i learned the hard way on what bad harmonics can do without you even knowing til its too late.

 

So you saying that if i build to identical engines with proper clearances and both ballanced properly with given parts.
one with supertech valve train and rs machine pistons and stock rods etc
And one with fererra valve train and some expensive off the shelf pistons and rods

I can take them both and run a mile stretch of freeway between8000- 9000 rpm and expect them both to live?

 

From what i red here. Spoon handpicks the parts with very close tolerances so everything is within .01

 

https://honda-tech.com/forums/all-motor-naturally-aspirated-44/b18c-build-numbers-high-low-average-1422812/

ITR Valves
Guides are stock
Valve Springs Skunk2
Retainers Skunk2 stock keepers
Skunk2 Cam gears
Toda Belt
stock Rods
Over-sized CTR Pistons
Factory bearings
Toda oil pump gear with stock water pump
CTR crank pulley

The rest of the specs on this motor are in the attached thread.
CR ratio was 12.8:1 Measured balanced and put together by Dennis at LDL speed shop in Las Vegas.

(Personal Experience) I ran this motor from 2003-2011 and put about 60k on it before blowing it at Chuckwalla due to my own lack of checking the oil level.

Peak power on Mustang Dyno in Las Vegas was 225 WHP at 9056 RPM 100 octane. This was in 03 and I was still drag racing and drove the thing almost daily. After about 10K miles I got sick of filling 100Octane and swapped out the pistons for some oversized P30's.

Compression was now 12.3:1 and only thing changed was timing belt. I ended up using a greddy one. Tuned on 91 and made 208 WHP at 8890 RPM.

The motor saw about 3 full events at spring mountain in Pahrump, A bunch of adams motorsports park in riverside(lol) and I drove it from SGV to Chuckwalla and it pulled double duty for most of the day and gave out on its 9th session.

So pretty much what my 2 cents is I like your personal preference of high revving and I don't it takes custom everything to have it be reliable. The motor did not see much revving when i moved back to LA in 08 but between 03-08 I was mobbing around at a minimum of 5-6k when cruising...thanks to the 4.9FD(

 

If you try to blow up both engines you could do it, you just have to try more on the Forged one Realistically if you tune both accordingly they SHOULD. 1 Mile is 30 seconds at 120mph and i've stayed above 8000 on a stock B18C4 for a lot longer than that.

 

seems like ITR valves are pretty popular i guess i didnt notice that when i was reading build threads and dyno threads lol now that you mentioned it i remember alot of them having ITR valves.

 

when i was talking to brad @RLZ engineering, he told me to stick with just normal b series valves because if you over-rev and might slap some valves and he has seen ITR break at the stem, Idk if its true but I trusted him and my motor seems fine, it might only have a few hundred miles on it but when I do drive it I see 9000rpm's almost every time.

 

Pick a set of cams and build the rest of the engine around them. Best advice I've ever gotten.

 

lol. ok.
im picking the cams that will carry power to 9000 rpm like i mentioned before.
thats one of the few retarded advices given by people that never built an engine or been building engines for years anc can build an engine around a desired camshaft.

 

Retarded...right. Carry on. No point in me taking the time to explain to you why that is the better way to go about building one of these little engines. No point in building the rest of the engine to take maximum advantage of the device(s) that control the amount of air entering and leaving the combustion chamber. Who does that these days. That's why S2 Pro3's are so successful in stock gsr engines

There are plenty of cams out there that will carry power beyond 9000rpm so why stop there if you like high revving engines? Hell if you like them so much why not go for a short stroke b16 and spin it to 10K? You can safely get away with turning more rpm with a shorter stroke. If you really want to get into it, lets talk about why high bore/stroke ratio engines are better for high rpm use.

 

this is not about cams. and i specified in the first post. its about building the rest of the engine to support specifically higher than stock redline.

and for example do you know exactly what engine buddy club spec 5 camshaft requires?
and where the power will be, before you take it to the dyno?

this is about other parts not cams so please dont bring these generic advices in this thread.

 

Aside from Blake, this is the BEST Tech response here.

The camshaft is the heart of the motor, it will dictate how much air gets in, and out. This is the way old school FAST cars have been doing it, this is how people build motors, the correct way.

Pick a camshaft, or profile and build around it to suit its need.


Why would you pick a camshaft that requires 12.1 and the displacement of a 2.0 and massively ported head when you have a 11.1 motor, thats a 81.5, and street port head(example)

Once you figure out which camshaft you want to use, you'll then be set the rest of the way because you'll know what you need to support that camshaft's profile and ulitize it fully.

People come to me alot.. I want this massively *** huge camshaft, but the engine is only built to support a .480 lift with 266 duration, not a .505 lift with 280 duration.

 

Last I heard, cam specs don't even matter...lol.

 

Off the top of my head no, I do not, I didn't design the cam, I don't know the specs of the cam, and even if I did I wouldn't be able to tell you much from them because the design of camshaft profiles is not something I've studied in depth. If that for example was the cam I planned on using for an engine build I would call buddy club and tell them what I was doing and say I want to use it. I would then ask what combination of displacement, compression ratio, and round about cylinder head flow would work best with that cam. Get your answer and bam, you now have your entire engine build figured out minus small details.

If you build the rest of your engine around the cam manufacturers recommendations, you'll have a very good idea of where your power band is going to be. That being said, would it be so hard to pick a cam that produces power beyond 9000 rpm or makes peak power at 9000 rpm if that's what your after and build the rest of the engine around it so you know you have the optimal setup for your power and rpm goals?

Personally(and here comes my opinion so be prepared), After making as many mistakes as I've made and learning as much as I have from it, I think anyone would be stupid not to build their engine around a cam profile.