Torqued my ARP's to 85ft-lb using a cometic head gasket on a D16 and experiencing issues with pushing coolant.

thinking about going with an OEM gasket and using the ARP's to 60ft-lb's like they specify, however torquing to a lesser value to me just feels wrong.

 

Well, when you torque them to spec you can re-use them many times. I personally have a set I've torqued more than 10 times. You, however, completely stretched and ruined yours and will need to be replaced then torqued correctly.

 

lol why did you torque them to 85 instead of 60 like the instructions said?

 

if you went way over torque
you most likely stretched the bolt and hopefully didnt ruin the anything on the block threads. also going that much over you most likely smashed the headgasket to where it wont function correctly, which is why your experiencing what your experiencing

 

im curious to see how much the head gasket expanded really going over the torque spec THAT much

 

ditto

i know there has to be tolerance, but he most likely went way over it...25lbs over

 

The sheet that comes with the ARP bolts say 85. Honda's stock torque is 60. Maybe that is where the confusion is.

 

85 on a B series maybe, not sure if thats the same on a D series

 

70 on a d if im not mistaken
at least thats what ive tq them too. headgasket still pushing coolant for me too. let me know if you fix yours. im about to swap my replacement engine in.

as soon as i bought a new turbo it starts to push coolant

 

ARP calls for 60ft-lb on a D-series motor, however they do not specify N/A or boost. these motors are plagued with headlift issues under high cylinder pressures which i'm sure most of you guys are familiar with if you've ever looked at a D-series thread. Knowing this, it just seemed logical to give put some more clamping force on these studs to help with the issue. Unfortunately I'm experiencing the latter.

My tuner at the time told me to go to 85ft-lb's on this set, however he's mostly done B-series motors which in retrospect is probably why he told me to do so. This guy is also the same idiot whom didn't retard my ignition timing under boost which I also believe is the main culprit in regards to the headlift. I feel as if he wanted to make as much HP as possible on my motor to build some sort of D-series name for himself. Sure he made me 374 using an 18G on a log manifold, but now it's to my expense.

I've been talking to Jeff Evans as he will be tuning the car over for me next month and he simply told me to go with an OEM gasket and new set of studs. I'm going to torque these at 60ft-lb and hope for the best.

 

I have never heard of head lift problems with ARP studs on a D-series. Obviously the bolt manufacture knows 10x's more than your "tooner". The guy is obviously a clown, disregard his advice. A torque specification isn't going to change if you are using nitrous, boost, or just have it stock. I have no idea how that silliness go put into your head.

About 90% of the time there is a problem with a head gasket NOT sealing it is installer error. I don't know how many times I have seen people say "it was straight and torqued perfectly" to find it was warped as all get out. A plastic level isn't a precision tool. Say all you want, something isn't correct.

 

Aside from lining up the gasket on on the dowels what more can be done to insure a proper seal?

 

Perfectly flat surfaces, proper surface finish, proper head gasket crush (not too thick of shims), letting the bolt/stud relax between torque sequences, properly calibrated torque wrench, checking final torque setting, ect...

 

Why would you think this? ARP studs are designed for higher cylinder pressures like boost, high compression, etc. That's the reason you buy them. That's the reason they give you the torque spec's they give. And no ignition timing will not cause head lift alone, too much ignition timing will cause detonation, which destroys motors.

 

...but if I just turned the nut a few more foot pounds tighter, I can up the ignition and...

That is what they were thinking...

 

Max clamping force is at arp specs. over-torque stretches the studs and loses clamping force. Your tuner sounds like a derp, I bet he told you to torque your rod bolts to 85ft/lbs so you can rev to 10k too, right?

 

The threads on the "nut side" of the ARP studs are finer than the stock head bolt threads. That will make the actual clamping force greater with the ARP tourqed to the SAME tourq as the stock headbolts.

 

Your torque specs should not be coming from ARP, they should be coming from the gasket manufacturer as they designed the gasket to work with a certain clamp load. Adding more torque than they designed can change how it loads due to how the head distorts.
Lube and prep of threads on the studs (and friction surfaces) is a big one most people overlook also.

Tip: The black oxide coating on ARP studs actually increases friction and should be removed from threads and all friction surfaces. It's only purpose is to prevent rust while they're sitting in the box.

 

yes and no

you make a valid point but hardening material is different from the original design, even the bolt design in completely different from the designer intent. ARP has designed there bolt to have the same tightening as the factory, but it requires a higher torque to achieve.

we all know factory head bolts cant take abuse other than the factory tolerance it was designed for...

 

I would assume Cometic would be doing their calculations off of ARP or better fasteners but that's just a guess.

The amount of force it takes to turn a fastener would be directly related to the amount of force it is putting on the head of the bolt. I could see a reduction in torque loss due to the harder material but I'd think the initial torque would be similar between the two (or higher for the ARP).

I should admit I have some bias because I have seen ARP pull torque values out of their *** in the past. They recommend 71 ft-lbs for the Miata which is enough to crack the bolt bosses if you're unlucky.

 

No and No. ARP bolts are designed to work with OEM style MLS gaskets, Cometic's are merely bored out OEM MLS gaskets, there is absolutely no issue with using cometic gaskets and ARP bolts. Also, ARP does NOT recommend removing the black oxide coating from ARP studs, as it states on the instructions it is there to prevent galling AND rust. ARP studs can be installed with just oil as a lubricant, or the ARP fastening lube that comes in the box OR red loctite as it states on the instructions for permanent mounting.

It amazes me that there is so much confusion regarding the use of these things, when the instructions are so plainly and easily laid out on the little piece of paper that is included. Ive been using them for years and have never had an issue with sealing.

 

I think Cometic would take exception to that statement.
I didn't say ARP did. I was just telling you what works and what top engine builders do. You can not get a consistent torque value with a coating on a fastener.

 

Yes you can lol which particular "TOP ENGINE BUILDER" recommended removing the coating from ARP studs.

 

It's actually knowledge that trickled down from NASCAR. Came out of a presentation I attended at IMIS last year. Any more questions?

 

Don't waste your time on this guy. He is just another troll...