I have searched the archives, and I have an unanswered question.

What would you guys think of the B&M Honda stick with the OEM type bend? I work for the company, and we are prototyping one with a bend for '03. This seems to be the most technical Honda site on the net, so we would really value your opinions.

I have spoken with the lead engineer, and we talked about the following:

1. rattle from heat shield
2. rattle from shifter touching larger diameter pipe
3. harmonic noise from louder exhaust systems (N1 for example)
4. bushings

My next reply will have that discussion summarized. I seek all feedback, positive or negative. Its my job to learn what the consumer wants, and attempt to address the concerns.

Thanks in advance,
Mike

 

Ok, here is what I have taken away from the discussion with the lead engineer.

1. We build the shifter to fit the CRX, Civic, Sol and Integra, so there has to be some looser tolerances. Now, with stockish exhaust it should fit all of those cars just fine.

2. Enter the heat shield. In the instructions, it should state heatshield mods may be necessary. 85% of guys I have talked with via email and PM have ditched them altogether. Others haven’t, and either cut, or banged out the shield to get a little extra clearance. Between those three methods, I think almost all consumers solve the heat shield issues. We are not done yet...

3. Enter bigger exhaust. This poses a problem, since when engineering the shifter we can/did not compensate for all exhaust sizes. It poses a big engineering challenge when this shifter fits 4 different cars. Unfortunately, this is something we can not re-design, since it may cause other issues across the 4 models. Now, I have a solution that should work well. You really do not need much more clearance, so you can either bend the metal hangers a tad or go find rubber exhaust hangers that will give you a little more space. This should take care of any lame rattles, since there will be no more contact with the exhaust pipe.

4. Bushing time. When adding a performance shifter, you will almost always bring more noise into the car. Replacing the bushings with an ES kit will help, but still, I do not think it will be OEM quiet. Personally, I’m willing to deal with a little bit of noise, especially if I took care of the blatant rattles described in #2 and #3. We are considering adding new bushings (3 pieces like Neuspeed) in later months. This will raise costs of course, but it should still keep us well under Neuspeed. Now, the noise that the N1 owners have been hearing, is unfortunately impossible to stop. The 'tuning fork' analogy loosley works, and the harmonics that certain exhaust make are sometimes amplified by the shifter. A fully dampened shifter would stop that, but that is cost prohibitive and really not an option. Fortunately, it seems like there are very very few cases where the exhaust causes such an issue.

5. OEM bend. We just fit a prototype to a B18 swap car yesterday. This is well underway, and will be hitting the streets sooner than we think. Again, this will fit the CRX, Civic, Teg and Sol, so we will have to find a happy medium that works for all cars. Believe me, you guys will like it

6. Feedback needed. Would you guys be willing to pay an extra, say, ~$15 if it includes the ES type bushings? My guess is yes. That price is *not* confirmed, but that should be an accurate guesstimate. Your answer to this question is very important at this state in product enhnacement, so I await and encourage all responses.

Thanks guys,
Mike

 

Well I guess a new design wouldn't help me much because I went out and bought a B&M and installed it on the weekend.

It works great, but I get rattle once every so often, and I know for a fact that it is not hitting the exaust or heatshield underneath.

In #4 are you stating that their are flaws in the bushings since you will now develope one similar to Neuspeed? I added all 5 silicone rings and tightened the bolt, but is the rattle coming from that area?

 

How much does your shifter retail for? I don't have experience with your unit, but the DC Sports one, which supposedly fit the Sol VTEC and the Integra Type R didn't fit too great on my ITR. I had to grind down the metal bushings(spacers) In order to fit the shift linkage over the shifter. Also, I didn't like the width of the revloute end because it was hard to fit over the rubber grease boot.

Including bushings with your shifter is a good idea.

sack-who could care less about rattles.

 

What is the benefit of adding the bend to the shifter? What will that do for us that the straight style doesn't? I own a B&M Pro-edge I have installed in my 95 Integra and have been happy with it. Shifts are precise, and with a little bending of the heat shield it no longer hits. I do have the aluminum bushings which has a lot to do I think with the stiffness of the shifts, but I like it that way and can deal with the 'hum' the shifter makes. From your list, I gather you aren't changing anything with the shifter except for maybe adding new 3-piece bushings. All your list seems is corrections the consumer has to make, i.e. banging out the heat shield, using rubber hangers...

Am I go gather that the only change would be the OEM bend and 3-piece bushings? Again, clarify the reason the bend will help, as well as the bushings. Thanks for the info.

 

Do you guys know how the C's Shifter is made?

 

...regarding the bend on the OEM shifter, I find that the shifter is too far away from me on third and fifth gears when I'm properly seated. I don't have the current B&M shifter, but the straight neck seems to put the shifter at just the right distance and angle for me in all gears.

 

understeer: We are considering including ES style bushings with our street shifter. The street shifter only comes with O Rings now. We include new bushings with the race shifter, but the throw is so short on that stick that it is not a big seller. Adding the new bushings helps get rid of the noise, as well as created a more positive shift feel.

sack: I have see our street shifter as cheap as $45 shipped online. Typical street price is $50-$60. List is $75 or so.

95Teg: It will improve shifting ergonomics and comfort. The straight stick works just fine, but we have been getting a lot of requests to put the OEM bend in the car. You are correct, we are considering:
1. adding an OEM style bend
2. adding 3 bushings

Most guys get new bushings, and I would assume the consumer would rather buy them with the actual shifter. It eliminates 1 step in the buying process. Of course, with APC and Vibrant selling shifter for <$30, it makes the psychological price game tougher than you may think.

Thanks for the input so far!

Mike

 

The only problems I have with the B&M:
- No bends
- Occasional rattles

Eliminate those two problems and you have a winner. If it helps any, I found that the lack of grease on the bushings that were included contribute to the rattles.

I would not opt to add the extra bushings. When I added ES bushings, rattles were more prominent. I suggest keeping the price low by not including extra bushings. B&M is one of the only shifters that do not snap...which is a great thing.

 

i must agree that the B&M shifter was built tough. My generic short shifter snapped on me and cut my finger, so i bought the B&M

The only two problems that I have a problem with was just mentioned.. the straight design ( making the shifter too far up ) and the rattle.

The B&M shifter is the best bang for the buck though.

 

With the shifter not being a bent design and the positioning of the shifter it is a major reason of why I have not purchased a B&M short shifter...on top of the stock Type-R having a pretty good design to begin with(not that you can't improve upon it).

Either your being resourceful and looking for the honest opinion of the enthusiasts, or you're having fun with us and you're having a laugh on our behalf...I certainly hope that a company(and there are quite a few others on this message board) takes the thoughts and inputs of what the actual consumer has and applies them to their products...which would lead to a win-win situation.

Austin - who has learned quite a bit about marketing over the last 3 years

 

I've been pretty happy w/ my B&M shifter.. I removed all the heat shields when I was under there doing my exhaust system install but i do have an aftermarket (Greddy Evo) exhaust system so that might be whats causing the rattling I hear..otherwise I'm very pleased w/ the current design...

although the implementation of the curve/bend on the new shifter would be cool I don't see myself spending more money/replacing my current B&M unless it breaks or something...

 

its funny that i found this post... im lookin for shortshiter, i was highly considering a B&M but i wanted the oem bend because i think that that extra inch or so might make my days in traffic a bit more bearable...
i was also considering getting new bushings too ..considering how many shifts my cars been through i think its time for new ones...
if you do make it, im willing to wait til its out, but can you make the bends as agressive as posible because the Integra shifter is a bit far from the driver...
^^FEEDBACK^^

 

woah i thought i was the only one that thought that. if i get a short shifter will it maybe correct that?? maybe the skunk2 one...or maybe the new b&m one??

 

I have the original B&M shifter with the metal bushings.
I am not sure if this has been corrected since (threads on the shifter are not exact, I had to rethread them to fit my OEM ITR titanium ****; either that or ruin the threads on an expensive shift ****)

Rattled like crazy; I have no heatshields and it is not hitting the exhaust. (I have swapped the bushings to polyurtehane ones to stop the rattling; but it still rattles) Its the damn shifter itself that rattles.

Get rid of the cheesy O-rings as it bias the shifter too much.

Needless to say, I went back to the stock ITR shifter (although the throws were longer; IMO the stock feels more precise when I am trying to shift at redline and does not rattle)

What this customer wants is for B&M to buy back my original B&M shifter and bushings (I suspect that is why you guys came out with the pro-edge design to replace the original design that was full of flaws)

 

Only 5 posts per 24hours...that sucks. Thanks for the replies!

austin: I'm being 100% honest. Its time for me to to do things differently now that Im with this company. I need to really gather accurate street level info, something that is surprisingly hard to come by utilizing typical channels.

GSR: I wouldnt replace the straight stick for the bend either. Its just another flavor for the new crop of consumers.

10k: I will post an ETA once I get it. We are working our engineers very hard, and the Honda stick is at the top of the list.

#132: I appreciate your feedback. When did you buy this shifter, and from who? Did you ever raise your concern with the vendor you purchased it from?

Thanks,
Mike

 

I've had a B&M in my car for the last year and a half. I'm with Alf, get rid of the rattle, and you've got a winner. Mine's been rattling since day one, and it is not hitting any heat shield and i still have a stock exhaust, so that isn't it either.

 

Mine had the rattle after install but just ignored it. Funny thing was that the rattle went away after I went over a speedbump that almost high centered my car . The bump shoved my exhaust up into the shifter and somehow cured my rattle problem. No problems until a year later when the top of the shifter ,where the threads are, broke off. A little pissed at that time but I said to hell with it and got a shiftknob that used set screws to fasten it to the shifter. Love it even more now that the **** sits lower and has no rattles.

 

whatever will make it close to OEM as possible and eliminating the rattle, while still maintaining the purpose of why we buy the short shifter for... to me, is the only feedback you need. $10-$15 for new bushings seems fair... but eliminate the problems and youll eventually have numerous happy customers.

 

MkIIMike: Since you work for B&M can you explain the difference between the Edge and the Pro Edge shifter. Please include pro's and con's. I have called B&M asking them this and they just said it had a different bearing in the middle. Please elaborate.

My friend has the B&M Edge on his Type R, and I like the feel of it alot. I am looking to buy one in the future. And like everyone else said, it's the rattles from the shifter that need to be revised. He runs a open header and no heatshields so there is no way it is hitting anything. It is something in the actual shifter. He has also run with stock exhaust and no heatshields, so I'm sure that it's the shifter.

As far as bushings go, you might want to look into finding something that is between the stiffness of ES bushings and stock. I have heard that an in-between stiffness (from what i hear Spoon bushings) makes for a crisp, smooth shift. I believe the ES bushings are a touch notchy.

Also, while your at it, could you give a better description of the Shift Stabilizer Kit than is on your website??

Thanks for your time.


[Modified by WiggiE, 10:10 PM 10/18/2002]

 

Hey MkIIMike, whenever you have your prototypes ready I'll be glad to test them out for you guys for free

 

how about making a shifter similiar to the C's shifter>? w/ out the crazy price they charge? this is the one i'm talking about https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=208621


[Modified by lucas569, 1:41 AM 10/19/2002]

 

me too!!!

 

Just thought I'd throw my .02 in.

I just bought a skunk2 short shifter, after considering the b&m (both the race and the street). My only reason for choosing the skunk2 over the b&m was because the skunk2 had the oem bend in it (I actually wanted the b&m race, but the bend ended up being more important.) My problem is I'm a big guy (I barely fit in my teg, I have to put the seat all the way back and recline it a bit to fit), and I need the bend in the shifter for me to be able to reach it comfortably. I think it would be great if you guys started putting the bend in, I know I would've bought the race one if it had the bend.

Just out of curiosity though as well, which bend are you talking about? The 93 and older single bend or the 94 and up double bend?

One other suggestion, that I'd love to see, is something that was done on a japanese shifter I believe (I think pivot did it), where they put a sort of joint in the middle of the shifter that would allow you to reposition the shift **** or sort of increase the bend of the shifter. It looked like a vertically stretched N, with the middle leg of the N adjustable for length and I think angle. A shifter like that with b&m quality would be ideal for me since I could position it to be most comfortable for me.

Just my .02, hope you guys release the shifter with the bend, I might have to sell my skunk2 then and get your racing one with a bend.

 

Well one of my winter mods is a short shifter so I for one will follow this thread closely. Unfortunetly I have never had a short shifter so I can't really give any feed back, however, B & M was the one I was probably going to go with but I'll wait until the new design comes out too. I know it is a very hard thing to do, but do you have ANY ETA???? I mean 2 months, 6 months a year?? Just wanting to know if I can wait for the new design.

Thanks,


OOOO PS. Do you have any dealers or distributors in Canada??? If so where or how can I get in contact with them. If I order from the states I get stung with duty, taxes and brokerage

Thanks again





[Modified by beefpigs, 4:57 PM 10/19/2002]