Hey guys, first i want to thank Spencer Anderson (lo-buk ef) for taking so much time last night to talk to me about rules and the state of HC. That being said I'd like to start a civil discussion on how to grow the series back to its former glory.

My primary goal is mainly directed to the H1 class and possible rebirth of H3. H2 is doing the best right now so no worries there.

H1 Engine:
-I would like to see a "spec" rod and "spec" piston company chosen for H1 to allow for stronger and safer engines. And by "spec" I mean OEM Honda dimensions but stronger materials. Im sure it cant be too hard to find a company that would like to sell a few more products a year. And for impound porposes the slected mfg must have model #s stamped on the botton of the pistons and visible on the con rods. I may be mistaken but I thought that this is already being done by manufactures. RealTime ran non OEM stuff YO ( http://www.itr1220.com/scc_mar2001/index_rtr.htm ) lol
-I would also like to intake manifold opened up as well. Intakes are available for all H1 elagble engines. Cheap safe power.
H1 Transmissions:
-Gears should be open... all gears. It was discussed last night that its too costly because people will be will have specific gearing for each track. I will address the cost issue later. Penilty add weight.
H1 Aero:
-All aero should be allowed..... spliters, side skirts, wings and difusers. As we are already allowed spliters and wings as well as CF hoods and hood scoops why not alow a complete aero packages to be developed. The additional allowences would be a very low cost rule change.

I feel that as the cost to the racer was brought up last night and in many past rules threads I will simply say..... "in a series that allows $5,000 shocks at a 75 lb penilty or $1,400-$1,800 on a wing why would cost be an issue if i want to spend any amount on the rest of the car". I know there is a "with in reason factor" BUT as I see it HC has very very LOW car counts in almost every region. We need to stir things up. If the HC cars are in a pack of 3 or 4 BMW's or Porshes if a potential racers sees this they will look to race in a class that actualy has cars on track . I think with the popularity of H2, H1 and the rest have been forgotten. I also think that the month to month racing at a regional level is much much more important that car counts at NATS. I say this in all due respect to those who make the trip every year. But with HPD picking up entry fees last 2 years guys who had no intention of running HC added it to their week and HC car counts for the free track time. Is is a false # only because when they go back home they go back to their respected classes and HC has a ZERO car count. We need the local guys to run HC to then get them to go to Nats as an HC participant.

Now to the rebirth of H3!!!!!
I mean no disrespect but I think alot of people racing HC have forgotten the excitement they felt when they made the decision to jump in and go wheel to wheel. I only say this because I have had many students that have a stock swap in their car that want to race but... and here comes a cost issue.... to prep to H2 specs its just too much. Why not bring it back to the origins of HC when guys were grabbing junk yard engines and swapping basic parts to play with their cars and go a little faster. As H3, H4 and H5 are all dead.... Open H3 as a "Suplimental Class" at the local level with no Nationals recongnition for a probation period of 2 or 3 years to see if there is even any interest.. This may or may not work but as a whole all HC participants are at this point just going down with the ship.. I just personaly think a small shake up is needed.

Finaly I want to say thank you to all who work so hard on this series where we get to play with the best production cars on the planet!!!!
Thank you Jeremy, Ryan, Spencer and all who may take the time to read this..

Lets here what you think

 

You can build yourself a car like that , and there is a class for it . Is called SU. From time to time there is people coming out with what they would like to see or their magical approach to the perfect class.
We need to work with what we have right now. Rules are not bad at all we just need to tweek a little bit but that happens in all kinds of racing every year.
H3 is there just build a car stick some stickers and go race it. This year nationals produced some of the best racing in h1 seen for a while, just ask Meris if it was good or not.
As much as we want to say the system is broken , is not, economy is really bad and main reason why numbers are down. We all don't have $1000 to blow on a weekend.
So like I said , if you want to make a difference get in your car and go race and then you , as a paying customer, can request changes. Or you can start another series with your own rules .

 

Since you offered to hear our opinions-I'll start by saying that these are my thoughts to your suggestions. Some things I agree with, some I think are far fetched. So take NO offense on what I think which suggestions won't work.

In a nutshell, a lot of the suggestions you have make H1 more of a HC open class. If you remember, HC had a class like what you described-it was called "HU" or Honda Unlimited. That class failed miserably. There were some NSX's and super charged RSX's for a regional race or two, but essentially it was a dead class from it's inception.
It sounds like your suggestions, point in the direction of the old "HU" class. How do you know, if your suggestions become rules, the same won't happen in the "NEW" H1 class?

I agree with half of what you state here. First, I'd like to say, that in my opinion factory rods and pistons suffice for having a reliable HC engine in H1. I, as well as Kevin Helms have built H1 legal B20vtec engines (obviously with oem B20/B18ls rods and oem B20-PHK pistons) that have had hp numbers over 240whp. I've also built H1 legal K-series engines that had over 190lbs/ft or tq. The OEM rods and OEM pistons (in both B20vtec and K-series engines) held up without any issues. These engines don't make an excessive amount of power that warrant aftermarket rods nor pistons. When was the last time you've seen a rod break by itself? (rod bolts go first) When have you seen a piston break? When a rod or a piston fails in a normally aspirated engine of our power levels, it's usually improper tuning or incorrect clearances during the engine build. What often breaks in these engines are the rod bolts or cylinder walls (B20). The rules already allow us to use aftermarket rod bolts (usually ARP) which INCREDIBILY prevents from breakage. A blockguard for the B20 is allowed and helps prevent sleeve cracking but, the oem sleeves barely have the structural integrity to hold the power Helms and I made with the B20. Honestly, even with a block guard, B20vtecs are on borrowed time.
Most people favor having aftermarket rods for H1 builds. To ease people minds, I think it should be an allowed option but NOT a mandated rule to have aftermarket rods. Give the H1 racer a choice. Have a rule to either use OEM rods or a specific aftermarket brand, material (steel, chromoly, titanium, etc) and minumum weight. Personally, unless one uses titanium or aluminum rods, oem rods will be lighter thus having better rev capabilities and potentially more hp.
As far as pistons are concerned, aftermarket pistons ARE NOT NEEDED. What issues have HC racers had with OEM pistons? OEM pistons hold up fine for the power levels we make. Using an aftermarket piston does NOT increase reliability. The only benefits of using aftermarket pistons is to save on rotational weight and to have bigger valve pockets for high lift cams and oversized valves. In H1, notching the pistons for valve relief is already allowed, so I don't see why aftermarket pistons would be needed.

I partially agree here as well. I think that HC H1 engines should be able to use ANY Honda OEM intake manifold and can ONLY modify them by either cutting off the water ports (for K-series engines) or having them allowed porting WITHOUT HAVING TO CUT INTO THE PLENUM.

Using aftermarket intake manifolds needs to continue to be prohibited as I've seen HIGH DOLLAR intake manifolds that increase HP TREMENDOUSLY. These manifolds cost over $9000 and are rpm specific. Allowing aftermarket intake manifolds can easily negate keeping costs low.

In our grassroots, club level racing, having specific gearing for each track IS possible but not realistic for most HC racers. I'm 50-50 on whether gearing should be open. If racer A gets a close ratio gear set and starts winning more and more races, racers B, C, D are going to have to purchase the aftermarket gearing as well to keep up with the Jones'. If everyone is allowed to use ANY OEM gears, then racers would be limited as to what gears and how much is needed to spend to be competitive.

I agree with allowing more aero, BUT only allowing side skirts and diffusers. Honestly, almost EVERY HC racer is NOT educated enough (except Johnny Mac) to know how effectively how to use ALL the aero components to it's most effective use. So I don't really think allowing aero will provided a distict advantage. It just means spending more money, for perhaps, no increase in performance or even a decrease (i.e. more drag)

Having all that bling doesn't mean H1 cars can't keep up with BMW's or Porshces. I pass them all the time here in norcal.

I disagree. Winning a national championship weighs more heavily than winning a regional race or even a regional championship. The national championship race is (or at least was) televised. MOST sponsors want the national exposure than at the regional level. Attending regional races IS important as you feel, BUT NASA already requires a 5 race rule to qualify for the national championships.

H3, H4 and H5 have always been around. But people have chosen NOT to race there. In my opinion, HC just needs to have 2 classes. Fast and Faster


now....i gotta get back to work

 

Well maybe Im not know on the forums anymore so I wont take offence to the first resonce to my post... I do race H1 and am very much a paying customer... And as some one who is on the verge of selling my car and building GTS2 M3 I think I have a right to make sugestions good or bad it gets people talking. Also entrant #'s as a whole are almost the same year in and year out here in nasa ma. So in my region where car counts are high no economy issuse here.... HC is dead in the MA all but Kevin Helms if I sell my car.

Meris thanx for posting... Its kinda funny that Spence told me that the reply for changing H1 would bring up HU and your first reply was just that. Kinda funny.

-So clearify the piston and rod rule is just like you said an option meaning OEM and brand "x" parts are allowed.
-Intakes... How about all OEM and like in H2 specific Intakes are legal.
-Aero... Thats all I was looking for. Not looking for crazyness like Redo's car.

And even here in the MA Kevin and I role through the slower BMW's and Stangs.

And my comment about Nats was directed toward attracting new particapants. And if no one is racing HC in a region why would someone want to be the lone Honda.

I only bring this up because the system needs to be tweaked Im not wanting to rework the wheel. H1 has had little attention in years. Again as one of a small few that even run H1 nationaly I'd like to see car counts up and catch Kevin... Im tired of looking at his rear bumper...

Thanx again for the responces

 

subscribed.

 

Just my .02 and a relatively easy fix is that Nasa readdress, and come down hard on those who wreck another car. Make it a mandatory part of every drivers meeting to go over the rules for contact , passing ,and such before every race weekend.
Make our directors give us our own speech in a separate meeting about driver etiquette every race!
If its drilled in every weekend then theres no reason for cars to be towed off course because negligence or just plain stupidity.

My concern in particular is the much more faster cars on track that think they have the right to press and wreck slower cars.... worse yet without consequence.

While im on track im not breaking my driving line for nobody.
If a faster car wants past me he can catch me exiting a turn much easier than to dive bomb me, and possibly wreck us both before we go into the turn.

There is no reason for a Thunder Roadster, and their bretheren as Austin puts it to wreck another car outside his group or its own group for that matter.

We all took our path to become race licensed, and we know the rules on passing.
Its just common sense to not force another car off track when you can just slow up a little and make a clean safe pass later, and not send someone home hurt, and their race car totalled.

Sure there is incidental contact, and all the grey areas in between, but if you look at the NASA CCR sections 25.3,26.0,27.0
and HC rules on page 19
There should be none of this happening if you know, and comprehend the rules.

There are the haves and the have nots out there when we race.
Some have the ability to come right back the following race weekend, and not bat an eye.
Keep in mind there are also others that building a new car to replace a broken one can take a year to get back on track.

Dont get me wrong guys I know the risks when Im on track ,and that if I have an accident im fine with chalking it up to thats racing and accepting my fate.
But there is no reason for someone being so impatient to get away from your group that he causes another car to crash.
This I have seen too many times in the last three years, the thunder roadsters and the worst.


A little caution and common sense goes a long way with me.

 

I said something similar and I am wondering if Kevin would tell you the same as I was told.

 

oh i know its not my car.... it all me
heres a video of Mike Skeen driving my car and running a lap .5 sec off Kevin Helms track record on only his 7th lap in my car oh the ther conditions were far from perfect od temp was 97 deg with high humidity
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8E2L5d_xLSA&noredirect=1

 

well , if you are a competitor in H1 and a paying customer then I must assume that you know the CCR and the HC rule book and how to request a rule change.
Honda Tech good or bad for some brings out a lot of people that think they know and have not even read the rules and then have a lot of suggestions of what they want to see and their bright ideas. The only thing I see with your post is another reason to inflame a situation.
If you are a HC driver then go to the private drivers forum and take your ideas there.

 

I have to disagree with the idea that my post would "inflame" anything. Im not trying to make this personal. I will say that as an example; you were very quick to jump on me as you did not know me as a racer. This I think is part of the problem. The I race and you dont so you dont count attitude is poor. And I have really seen it spread through this site in the last 10 years. SO that being said my point is for a civil discussion to gather information so I CAN submit a clear and concise rule change request. And as Meris has commented that he see's even some value in my ideas I think those deserve addition dicussion.

 

I see you opening the wallet and making HC more expensive overall to compete.


SCCA "STL" allows some of these modifications you are asking for like aftermarket rods and cranks.

The money I spent on my car for this class is probably about half of what I could have spent. $15k spent and $30k+ probably for a 10/10ths build.



That is something You have to remember when you want certain things opened up inside a class, the entrance costs to actually compete get extreme. STL is similar probably to H2 give or take here and there.

Be careful what you ask for!

 

I'm really quick to jump at the same discussion that has been going on here for the last 10 years.
I can care less if you are a racer or not, has absolutely nothing to do with my post. To clarify a little bit. If you are in the series, then you know the ways to try to change the rules.
The whole "I would like to see" and then change the whole HC1 just because you think you had a bright idea is what I'm arguing. And yes it opens the flood gates for people that has nothing to do with racing to start arguing about it, and then when there is a prospective racer reading all this then they get driven away from it.
Stop trying to change the whole system, there is room for improvement, yes, absolutely, can we make things better, of course things can always be better, just go to the track and enjoy the moment.
I don't have another bag of money to change to your imaginary "I would like to see" rules.
Sorry, but you ask for opinions.

 

Im not sure I follow the logic of the opening the wallet statement.

Maybe I should address my thoughts on each of the specific ideas I had.
-Rods and Pistions... As I run a K20R I have been told that the rods in these engines are a little weak and as the engine cost close to $5000 to replace $500 in rods for peace of mind sounds like a good investment.
-Intake Manifolds.... As you can spend as much as you want on a header to make power why not allow the other side some play. Im sure there is enough info out there to open this for the K's and make small changes for the other series engines as well to give us a little more power. RRC intake plus like 14hp for $450.... cheap power.
-Transmission.... As these cars are basic street cars most transmission have non race car friendly top gears. So that makes one transmission the "ONE" to have. And these come at a higher cost. If the main gears were opened a cheaper transmission could be purchased and then changing the main gears you dont have to purchase a different FD.
People are already buildling the "perfect" trans by running the trick H2 tranny and changing FD's per track (see many posts every year about top speed at this track or that track)
-Aero... I only bring this up as HC has removed the minimum spliter height rule, and they allow us to run any wing and even modify rear bumpers... Why not side skirts and even a rear difuser or underbelly. These can be made very inexpencively or purchased for a few hundred dollars.

I must say that MY car is 9/10s built the only thing its lacking is sending my head off for some work (and yes I know "the" place to send it). And I have a little bit of a problem with (and i may be wrong) investing "X" amount of dollars on head work if the car is fast as is and I'm racing by myself... So to recap the only think I am personaly interested in is the side skirts, IM and rods. All cheap changes.

 

Mike Skeen is just nasty, awesome to see him in a Honda.

You are not required to have door bars?


Open the wallet comment should be taken like this:

Good luck getting a "spec" rod or piston if by spec you mean xyz brand is the only upgraded rod allowed. So with that out there you would have a rule that reads like the one I have to follow in STL which again is SCCA's way to allow HC type cars to race.

Imagine the rules read for example purposes "after market rods are allowed and rod materials are unrestricted, OEM length required" and then "After market crank shafts allowed/open" and then "After market Intake manifolds allowed, materials open".

That right there is similar to rules I have read in Super Touring, how much money can you spend on those 3 items?

How bad and how much are you willing to spend to win within the letter of the law?

I know guys spending $15k+ on ITB (similar to H3)motors making 115whp with almost OEM requirements for the class.

Im just saying you are opening a can of worms you might not want to open...a guy with money and sponsors is going to build a $30k+ or more H1 motor with "Open" style rules and then you get even more guys that say *** it Im building a Spec Miata or SpecE30.


I hear you with the cost savings by switching rods etc but by doing that you fall into what I explained above. We cant even get SCCA to allow JDM motors for my class, do you know how much that sucks when looking for replacements or spares and having to locate and over pay for USDM motors? that alone would save money for me and others but it also opens the door for EDM BMW motors, JDM Toyotas and on and on so its something that is being given a lot of thought. Once the door opens with a rule that might benefit some, it gets exploited legally by those that can.


Edit: I read what Merris wrote and he already stated some of the things I was trying to.

 

This will be the last time I address you directly. So let me say...
NO ONE and I say this again NO ONE is asking you or anyone to change classes. So how much money YOU do or dont have is not an issue. And I must say Im not sure that you even read my entire first post. I did not want to change anything in the class YOU are running. I also am not trying to as you claim "change the whole system". Im not that self centered nor short sighted. Im puzzeled how as you and others say that there is room for improvement but we cant talk about it her. And your comment that i should "just go to the track and enjoy the moment".... Dude you lost me there? What is this "moment"? Is it when I win race in a feild of ONE??? Cuz that moment can be had in a DE setting.. I want to RACE, to STRATIGIZE and to lose do I can get better. Im not one to name drop but I will... Last night I spoke with 1/3 of the rules commitee Spencer Anderson for almost and hour and a half about things that we see as issues and positives in HC and H1 specificly. I also spent the last race weekend with Kevin Helms the MA Regional Director talking for hours about HC car counts and how to get them up. Chad Slagg is one of my best friends and when we get together all we talk about is racing and how to get more people in HC. And I'll say this again as TWO time the National Champ has chimed in that parts of my ideas are valid and even took the time to give specifics to his oppinions then it appears to me that with a discussion like this over time positive changes can be made. I'm in an industry that if you are not progressig you are regressing so maybe thats what has me thinking right now. I see it as HC being very close to being absorbed by PT (going the way of spec focus and ser cup)if car counts do not start rising. IMO H2 is a great class and it has its pros and cons as well BUT look at the rule set for H2 over the last 5 years... all but last year there were major changes. And the car counts are there in most regions. H1 has had no major rule changes other than the no Franken"K" engines from like 3 years ago. And car counts are down. Well as its been said NASA is for profit.... HC is a product of NASA and H1 car counts are down.... How do you stop the hemereging???? I think its with discissions like what I have "attempted" here. I really would love to hear from the S2000 guys. That is a car that is one of Hondas newer platforms that is tracked by many more people with the means to race. Open up the rules and then rein them in...

Now to address all of HC and the H-T community... It takes 2 people to argue. If the issue is that someone is proposing some crazy rule change.... who cares..... the best thing you can do is to stay out of it or give a reason and some of your reasoning as to your agreement or disagreement with the idea... This is a discussion forum right? The I'm right your wrong mentality is so strange to me I just dont get it.

SO to state again my few ideas are only that..... ideas that need to be dicussed and shaped before a rule change request can even be made because even my mind may be changed. And and the TOTAL point of this thread was to look to ways to bring back the old guard and attract new blood and all ideas are welcome. I refuse to continualy hear just go race.... because racing for most HC people outside of Cali and H2 in the NE are racing by them selves.

 

he's definitely got door bars. might want to add another one on the passenger side tho

 

.... Known....
Yeah I worked with Skeen for 2 days last July. Even though I had some unforseen issues with the car the one on one time was very valuble.

And Im not sure you are familiar with HC rules... I say this is respect to the fast that in H2 we have "spec" or allowed intake manifolds and cams in specific application. So if there were a rod mfg that has a stamp on the side of an OEM style rod it could be written as a sub set that part # XYZ is allowed in the B series and part #"PDQ" is the allowed K series and so on...

 

I have been through but not to the extent you guys have.

I get spec lines, if the classes originated in a spec then I don't see it as a problem but turning the class from what it is to more of a spec class would probably upset people.

I know that car counts are way down in general so the Clubs are probably wanting to keep people happy more than changing which could upset.

I think you NASA guys are lucky in comparison to some of the SCCA bs I have been dealing with. I wish HC had more than 2 cars in Fl, I would be running that instead.

 

I feel honored that you adress me directly that I just don't know what to say. Obiously all the name dropping has not produced any results since nothing has changed.
I can name drop as much or more than you since running in so cal you know who I'm in the track with but I will refrain myself.
Enjoy the moment, dude you are a weekend racer like all of us , you are not in grand am or alms , we work for a living , I go to the track to compete and have fun , my life is not consumed by racing. So what if I'm the only car on the track, more track for me. Yes I want to see full fields.
Since you have so many good friends and always thinking about how to get more people, how bout stop talking and start doing.
There is the bar door missing. Hope you and your friends can use it .

 

Ya know this has been a theme for a while and there are no simple or easy answers to this growth issue. With that said FIRST let me say congradulations to Johnathan Meris for Nationals I never publicly did that.What a great race ,and thats really what we strap in for. My Opinion (and we know what those are like) is that the people racing are the people that are going to race. Racing is a part of you ,an extension of a mental disposition.
Ive always been a competative person,its just how i've always been. When I strap in the car ,or get on my dirt bike its to be the best i can be whether im first ,second ,third Hell you can even be fifth( as Ricky Bobby's dad say's). You cant make people go racing and spend their hard earned dollar if its not what they want to do.Changing rules ,tires ,wings,etc will never make people show up to race. I don't know why there are low car counts but i will tell you this . If you want to race H1,show up at a Mid Atlantic regional race or NASA National and I will be there giving it 100%.Being the director for the MA region has been a little taxing at times but its my goal to make sure that any and averyone who wants to race HONDACHALLENGE has as much support as it takes to do so.
Ant of the past racers that want to comment PLEASE do so and maybe the folks reading this will understand the struggles of life and the desire to RACE. Thanks also to John Oldt, Andrew Lee, Eric Olson ,yes and you also Mike Harris for showing up and continuing your support of this great sport we love

 

kev, keep your phone on. i'll be calling ya this week.

 

Hey Kevin, thanx for posting as you are the reason I'm keeping my car. I had a talk about selling it and building for another class with Sacha and my dad a few days before the last event. It was the fact that I was able to drop as much time as I did scince the last time on track and being within a reasonable difference from you that has me chomping at the bit to get back out there in a few weeks. Just thinking out loud as it were to see if there somthing might spark something.

 

You did great man!!!!!!!! Looking foreward to seeing ya at the track. And Spence the phone is always on for ya man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I'm not racing in HC (just started driving in TT in Nasa), but I really hope that discussions like this would be in an open forum instead of a HC drivers private forum like the one Nasa HC has, so non HC drivers have a feeling for the issues and discussions, and how the group as a whole and rules committee addresses them. - Jim

 

Probably shouldn't say this, but here we go anyway. My dad raced with Nasa MA once, way back when, and he, like myself, thought the people were awesome; really like a second family that we had never met. The reason for not participating in another Nasa MA race after that: aside from the cost required to have a shot at even being remotely competitive and being classed with AI, AIX, ect. Drivers that didn't really seem have any concept of how to pass a slower car with out taking them out. This took place way back in like 2004. So, a couple years ago(probably longer than that)(getting a bit more current now. Lol) we decided to go spectate at hyperfest to see if things had changed any. To our dismay, during PRACTICE, Kevin was(from our view at the time(which may be entirely wrong)) attempting to pass someone coming out of turn 9 at Summit and was pushed off the track into the tire barrier which resulted in what I would call a totaled car. That was what you might call the nail in the coffin of our thoughts of racing with Nasa MA again. We loved the people, but what some might call a lack of driver common sense, awareness, ect. really put us off to the idea of signing up for another event. We were going to say hello at hyperfest, but we figured no one would remember us and therefore we would get labeled as a couple of a-holes that just showed up to gawk and stare at the product of someone elses f*** up if ya know what I mean.

My honest opinons of low car counts in the MA Region:
-As listed above for myself and my father
-NASA entry fee is a decent bit more than that of SCCA
-If you want to be competitive your car has to be built to the limit of the class(which is with most things, but still tends to turn beginners away from H1 and H2) and lets be realistic, those are really the only HC classes left in the MA region that people run in. No one really wants to be the lone wolf in H3, ect.
-Its cheaper to build a car for, and be reasonably competitive in classes such as STL or SM.

One thing I've noticed about our(myself and my father) situation is that we are basically the only car running in SPU with SCCA MA anymore. There used to be 4 or 5 cars, granted they were baby grand nationals and an old imsa car, but still. Lol. I know one guy switched home tracks, another just flat out gave up, and another got a sex change, then got into a bar fight, pulled a gun on someone, fled from the police, tried to run a cop down, and is currently awaiting trial. Not going to name names on that last one. I guess my point is its not just a NASA thing. Its the economy. Racing isn't a cheap hobby like golf and when you have to spend a lot of money that you don't have to be competitive, it becomes easier to take up another hobby or throw together a street car that you can actually drive more than 3 or 4 times a year.

I'm really sorry for the rambling, but there are a few decent bits that can be pulled from that rats nest I've just written.