I currently have Koni and Ground Control setup on my civic with 550 pound spring rates all around. I went with this because I was told that this was the limit on the OTS Konis and I thought it would be stiff enough. After driving for several months with this setup it doesnt feel the way I thought and would like to go with stiffer springs. I know I can get the Konis revalved but I have heard good things about the Bilstein shocks and could sell my current setup to a friend and start over.

So does anyone know the spring rate limit on the Bilstein sport shocks and where are you guys purchasing them from? Not many places seem to carry them and tire rack only has rears available. Im thinking of going somewhere around 600 front and 700 rear but have not decided yet.

 

I assume you feel 550 (~10kg/mm) is not enough for use @ track with R compounds?? Or do you find them not enough even on street tires on the road? Just curious...

 

Bilsteins can handle whatever spring rate you want as long as you buy them and get them revalved.

 

I understand that but was curious as to what the OTS sports could handle. At what point do they need to be revalved? I have looked around and saw that the regular bilstien hd shocks are similair to a koni yellow which can handle up to around 600# springs so if the sports are valved even stiffer than I would assume that they could handle even more spring rate before needing to be revalved?

Also I have read that the sports are shorter than stock length shocks. Is this true because if it is it would be nice not to need to buy extended top hats.

 

It is true, the race valved koni's are shorter, and you wont need extended top hats.
I have them on my car
Just based on what i have seen others run, the race valved can handle at least 1100lbs
There are lots of threads supporting and giving good information that you can easilly find here.
But..... you have to search.
Koni's happen to be widely used by many a driver here on HT.
Not saying they are the best, because I have heard they are starting to become less of the bargain bang for the buck brand.
But in my years of using them i have never had a failure or an issue.

 

I think I may have confused you with my post. When I said "sports" I was referring to the bilstein sports not the koni sports which are the revalved koni yellows i believe you are talking about. I know there are lots of threads on the koni sports but no too much info on the bilstein sports besides the thread about extended top hats in this forum.

Thanks for the information though. And yes it does seem like koni prices have increased since the whole "you cant beat koni yellows and ground control" craze started years ago.

 

You are correct there arent many who run the bilsteins but there has been people asking about them lately.

There was someone recently who asked about them if memory serves me...

 

The OTS valving is not fit for any spring rate and I would not recommend you get them if you plan to leave them stock.

 

is it possible to buy Bilstein with race valving already for reasonable price?

 

Im not sure what you are getting at here? I believe it was your thread where you tested a bilstein sport for the front of an ek and you said it was way overdamped for a 425# spring. so that would mean it should be able to handle a much stiffer spring than that unless i am not understanding exactly what you were testing.

on the dyno chart it also looked much stiffer than the koni yellow you had on there to compare.

 

The stock bilstein valving is simply wrong because it has a knee location too low and is too digressive and has symmetric low speed rebound/compression. It is also overdamped for a 425# spring. But maybe it's good enough for you, and I mean that in a totally condescending way, in hopes that you will get the subtle hint that proper damping is important.

 

Or since the US dollar was devalued compared to other nations like Sweden where Konis are made, or since the price of raw materials have gone up, or the cost of shipping too. It's fun to accuse "the man" of screwing you over, but you gotta see the bigger picture sometimes.

Beanbag, don't you think it's a little over the top to say Bilsteins aren't suitable for any spring rate? Seems to me that particularly in a motor sports setting, the "right" valving is a bit of a moving target anyhow, and very much subject to driver preference and the rest of the suspension package. I'm not saying the Bilstein valving is ideal for XXX spring rate, I just think you've blown things a little out of proportion.

BTW, I'll be putting my Bilsteins on my car in the spring, with 550f/350r springs. I'll let you know how it rides.

 

Revalve cost what? $75 a corner? I got a guy who services HotBits/Bilstein so I get a better deal than that.

But I would call up Bilstein direct. From what I heard through race buddies, they can't sell direct the custom valved shocks. However, they can tell you what to valve them to for your spring/application and then there is a shop that gets direct from Bilstein, they order the shocks and revalve them for you.

Off the shelf shocks are most likely generic valved for OEM springs in most cases. It's really not that much more to get a proper valving and you will be extremely satisfied with the ride quality with a properly matched spring/shock combo.

 

Why don't you post one of the dyno plots of your shocks which have been adjusted to how you like, and we can go from there?

Otherwise, I don't know of any motorsports in which you are not limited by rules to choose your dampers and springs how you like, in which somebody runs the same amount of low speed compression as rebound.

I can hazard a guess as to how the Steins will work on your car, assuming they have the same valving that I measured. (I can only speak for the fronts.) The car will have a weird sensation upon recovering from a dip where the car shoots up quickly, and then suddenly stops. That is a consequence of the highly digressive, low knee point. It will be harsh/non-compliant over small bumps, but will have a tendency to blow thru travel on bigger hits. Maybe you won't notice this in an autocross environment.

If u really want, in that same thread where I have the dyno plot of the OEM bilstein, I also have a formula for critical damping. Draw the 70% rebound line yourself to see how the shock is going to work with your springs.

 

Isnt that the nature of a digressive shock though? Or are you saying that it is just valved too digressively? When revalving your bilsteins did you go with a linear piston and is that what you would recommend for a high spring rate linear spring such as the ground controls? Or would you keep it digressive but just change the valving?

Thanks.

 

I don't know what good my 2812 plots are going to do. Those shocks are intended for an autocross car running 10" wide Hoosiers with 1000+lb/in spring rates. And those curves and rebound/compression ratios look WAY different than a softly sprung 1900lb car running Toyo R1R street tires. The shocks from that car have a very close rebound/compression ratio, and I know of others that have run even more compression then that. Personally I don't like lots of compression since I prefer to keep the car up using spring and bar. That doesn't mean lots of compression is wrong though.

That's great that you have a formula for determining critical damping. The theory is good for getting close on a starting point, but shouldn't be the end of the road.

 

Not really, the purpose of a digressive shock is to give one damping coefficient to the sprung chassis movements and another to the unsprung wheels as they track over fast bumps. It should be a smooth transition and not cut into the chassis motions as the stock bilstein valving does.

No I did not go with a linear piston and if you saw that thread you wouldn't be asking this. Some other people here do have linear valving, so ask them how it is.

There's a book from the JRZ guy which talks about damping. I don't own that book so I don't know what that guy thinks.

My shock experience comes from driving over windy and bumpy roads, which I think is the most general purpose. Autocross valving is a bit pathological because they try to tune for various specific things. You will have to take my word when I bad mouth a steep low speed compression damping curve with a sharp knee. That was back when I had my double adjustable 8211's, and you can turn that compression **** as much as you want and it will never feel "right".

 

When I called Bilstein to get mine revalved they told me what the stock shocks are good for but I have totally forgotten as it was a few years ago now.

But for anything type of stiffer springs you're gonna want to get the shock revalved for the springs. Its just gonna ride and handle better all around.

Give Bilstein a call, they're super helpful and knowledgable.

 

Thanks, did you end up getting the bilstein sports and if you did are they shorter in length that the hd shocks? i have heard that they are but it doesnt say anything about it on their site.

 

I have the Sports for an Integra ITR part number 24-023405F and 24-023412R. Not sure about the length differences between the HD and Sports - you'll have to ask them.