Suspension & Brakes Theory, alignment, spring rates....

Lots of parts+tuning, still feels weird

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Old Dec 8, 2011 | 02:55 PM
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skyjumper_z's Avatar
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Default Lots of parts+tuning, still feels weird

Here's my setup (98 Integra LS):

(edited because I live in a thief-happy neighborhood)

It feels really weird. Mushy and sloppy at low speeds, super-sensitive at high speeds. On the highway I have to hold the wheel almost perfectly straight or it feels like I'm going to lose control.

3 things come to mind:
- Caster angle - too high? Am I getting too much bump steer?
- Camber angles - too negative? Can that make it feel sloppy at low speeds?
- Spring rates - too low?

Can any gurus out there point me in the right direction?

Last edited by skyjumper_z; Dec 18, 2011 at 12:51 PM.
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Old Dec 8, 2011 | 03:16 PM
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Default Re: Lots of parts+tuning, still feels weird

Originally Posted by skyjumper_z
It feels really weird. Mushy and sloppy at low speeds, super-sensitive at high speeds. On the highway I have to hold the wheel almost perfectly straight or it feels like I'm going to lose control.

3 things come to mind:
- Caster angle - too high? Am I getting too much bump steer?
- Camber angles - too negative? Can that make it feel sloppy at low speeds?
- Spring rates - too low?

Can any gurus out there point me in the right direction?
Why was the caster "way off" in the first place?

I'd start by fixing whatever caused the caster issue first. Caster certainly plays a role in how the car feels.

Last edited by TunerN00b; Dec 19, 2011 at 09:50 AM.
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Old Dec 8, 2011 | 03:36 PM
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Default Re: Lots of parts+tuning, still feels weird

Originally Posted by TunerN00b
Why was the caster "way off" in the first place?

I'd start by fixing whatever caused the caster issue first. Caster certainly plays a role in how the car feels.
TunerN00b - it was actually you who PM'd me a while back about this. This is what you said:

Worn bushings, a shifted subframe, or bent control arms can all cause caster changes. I would seriously try and find the cause and correct that.
Wonder what my cheapest option is... find a parts car, pull the subframe/control arms and just start swapping parts?
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Old Dec 8, 2011 | 05:57 PM
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Default Re: Lots of parts+tuning, still feels weird

Originally Posted by skyjumper_z
TunerN00b - it was actually you who PM'd me a while back about this. This is what you said:



Wonder what my cheapest option is... find a parts car, pull the subframe/control arms and just start swapping parts?
Bushings can be visually inspected.
Control arms are easy enough to change, though any real issues should be visible.
The subframe should only shift in a rather serious accident, and should (guess on my part) leave visible evidence of such.

The first thing to do is clean the suspension area well and get in there and inspect.

I have the Whiteline caster kit. I would never install it, due to how poorly thought out it is. Shims placed there need to be tapered, not flat, due to the angle change between the LCA halves. They also included thinner bolts to replace the factory ones, which is also a terrible idea. All of that is IMO.

Having played with various caster settings on my Integra (SPC UCAs with adjustable camber and caster), anything other than the factory setting was just terrible. It tramlined significantly less, but produced significant amounts of bumpsteer and was slower on track.
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Old Dec 8, 2011 | 06:01 PM
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Default Re: Lots of parts+tuning, still feels weird

Yeah, that caster kit is really sketchy.

This car is super clean, no evidence of anything major on the LCAs or subframe that I have noticed so far.

I wonder if the caster angle is just too high? 1.6 and 1.4 where 2.2 is the spec max. https://i.imgur.com/MA6ws.jpg
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Old Dec 8, 2011 | 08:16 PM
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Default Re: Lots of parts+tuning, still feels weird

The thing that seems strange to me are your SAI and Included Angle measurements. These aren't directly adjustable, but are affected by making other adjustments. The important thing about SAI and IA is they should be pretty much the same from side to side, and if they're not, you can use them to diagnose bent parts.

SAI being off on 1 side usually indicates a problem with the cradle, lower control arm, or the upper strut mount.

Included Angle being off usually indicates a problem with the knuckle or strut.

You don't even need a spec listed, you just look at the differences. Example...
RF camber/caster/toe is fine, but LF camber is 1 degree positive. The IA for both sides is pretty much the same, but SAI is noticeably different. Since the strut tower being bent in would make camber negative, you know it's probably a bent lower control arm.

It just seems really weird to me that those numbers are so different from side to side, yet cross camber and cross caster are good. If it was my car, I'd put the stock upper control arms back on and get rid of the caster shims just to see what the camber/caster look like with stock parts.
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Old Dec 8, 2011 | 08:46 PM
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Default Re: Lots of parts+tuning, still feels weird

Originally Posted by seanbev24
It just seems really weird to me that those numbers are so different from side to side, yet cross camber and cross caster are good. If it was my car, I'd put the stock upper control arms back on and get rid of the caster shims just to see what the camber/caster look like with stock parts.
Here it is before I messed with anything - https://i.imgur.com/Ez9sN.png

Swapping LCAs shouldn't be too expensive. Maybe that's the next step.
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Old Dec 8, 2011 | 09:53 PM
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Default Re: Lots of parts+tuning, still feels weird

Originally Posted by skyjumper_z
Here it is before I messed with anything - https://i.imgur.com/Ez9sN.png

Swapping LCAs shouldn't be too expensive. Maybe that's the next step.
Ahh there we go. Your left lower control arm is bent and/or the subframe is shoved back.
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Old Dec 17, 2011 | 10:52 PM
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Default Re: Lots of parts+tuning, still feels weird

Originally Posted by seanbev24
Ahh there we go. Your left lower control arm is bent and/or the subframe is shoved back.
Yep, replacing the lower control arms and removing the caster kit was the fix. Thanks seanbev24.
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Old Dec 18, 2011 | 12:46 PM
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Default Re: Lots of parts+tuning, still feels weird

Glad to hear it worked out
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