It's a long story, and I don't want to get anyone lost in all the unnecessary details.. so I'll try to keep it shorter and sweeter.

Just bought my 98 Prelude about 2 weeks ago. It's been nothing but a headache. Little did I know, I'm actually running on a P73 ECU which turns out to be an Integra Type R JDM ECU. So that is a crazy story in itself, given all the research and people I have been talking to about our key immobilizers, etc. With regard to that issue, I contacted Phearable.net as per my Honda friend's advice to get a chipped ECU meant to run my car. Talked to Phearable and the guy was very knowledgable and efficient. Had to go with the P72 ECU due to the IABs, he told me. So, a little extra $ but it's OK. I just wanted to get it running right. Because with the ITR ECU, I was running so rich I was going through a tank of gas worse than a muscle car from the 60s.

I had tried some of the basics: air filter, oil change, new plugs, etc. None of that helped.

While I was waiting for the new Phearable ECU in the mail, my car developed another, potentially more serious problem. It stalls out of nowhere. There was one time I was driving to my gym which is about 1 mile away from my house and it died on me 9 times! THEN, it got even better. Starting noticing some oil burning smell... and then the clouds of smoke that arise when oil is being dripped on your exhaust lol. So yea, I was burning through oil too. About fed up with it at this point, I had it towed to the Honda dealer.

Diagnosis: balancing belt tensioner seized, grenaded balancing belt. Which also runs the oil pump I guess? And the crankshaft seal was leaking, so that was where all my oil was going.
Recommendation: whole new timing belt package deal. I figured since I just bought the car and it has 137k, I wouldn't mind throwing down on the deal if it ensured some longevity in the near future, especially coupled with the Phearable ECU I thought. So the dealer bent me over for $1000 but gave me a new timing belt, seal, all new tensioners, water pump, you know the deal.

I go to pick up the car and before I leave, I want to plug in the new ECU I got in the mail with the conversion harness and all that. Well, that was a no-go. As soon as I fired her up, she would die immediately. Tried this three or four more times with the same result. The only way we could get it NOT to die was to hold the gas and idle at like 2000-3000rpms. As soon as you let your foot off the gas it would die though.

SoOOOO to get home, I had to run the ITR ECU of course. Which worries me because I don't know if that had anything to do with messing up my balancing belt tensioner etc etc. But it has continued to stall and stall and run like a complete DOG on me. It's slower than a stuck turd. It's pathetic. I can't even accelerate past some grandma in her Subaru Outback to change lanes and get on a highway.

Today I got a new air filter, and I cleaned the IAC valve as was suggested. But I'm really at a loss here guys and I don't know what to do. Phearable suggested I find a local Honda/Acura tuning specialty shop or something to take a look at everything and see if they can help. Problem is, there is virtually no one in the Denver area who seems to specialize in that stuff. I come from the WRX/Evo crowd, and Denver is the Mecca for that stuff so I guess I was spoiled. Anyways, Phearable said that it could possibly be the injectors? Like, maybe I have the ITR injectors in there now, and that's why it won't fire up with the P72 ECU meant for my H22A4 motor injectors? But there is no way to tell just from looking at them, he said. Can't just pull one out and look at the part numbers or something apparently. So FML, huh? Lol any suggestions are welcome. Tomorrow I'm going to change my fuel filter. And I might take it back to the dealer and tell them what's going on and see if they can diagnos my stalling issues. I don't know if I mentioned it earlier, but the problem I'm having now is when I come to a stop and press the clutch in, the car dips down to nearly 0 RPM and just chokes on itself sometimes. Then I lose power steering of course and have to start it back up again while in motion. I must look like a 15 year old retard who doesn't know how to drive a stick.

PS: If I really DID have the ITR injectors in my car now, how would that necessarily explain the ridiculously rich condition I was experiencing before? I mean, sure, it could be the plugs and IAC and filter and stuff... but I'm just really wanting to think a lot of my problems are my ECU. But if I can't get this Phearable one to work, I'm really screwed. Because I am NOT about to pay the Honda dealer to do me up the anus again with a whole new Prelude ECU with a key immobilizer and be out another $1000, assuming that even fixes the problem(s).

 

I'd hate to see the long version...

The timing belt tensioner?

EXCELLENT idea. Mike Broddle is in the Denver area. If you can't find him or anybody else, let me know, and I'll contact him and see if he has the time to help you out. He would definitely be able to get you running.

They may have a different setting than your stock injectors. The voltage being sent tothe ITR injectors may equal the voltage being sent to the H22 injectors, but that doesn't mean the injectors are spraying equal amounts.

Who did you get this car from? Did you test drive it? I don't see how you bought a car that was running like this. There is NO way that the previous owner didn't know about the changes made to the car.

 

Sounds like your new ecu is not tuned for your injectors.... also ask the guy what fuel map he installed? cars always need 3 things to run... Fuel, Spark and air... but ya, sounds to me like ya lude h8's both its ecu's

 

oh yeah, OP, awesome avatar. that's the funniest vid

 

Yea no, they said it was the balance shaft belt tensioner something-or-other, not the timing belt tensioner itself. Although they replaced both during the timing belt install.

I have had absolutely no luck in finding anyone local who is reputable enough to help :/ That would be really awesome if you could help !

Absolutely, I understand. Why does it run "OK" with the ITR ECU I have now then? Especially with it being a JDM one. Anyways, if that's the case... where do you think I can get some stock injectors like I need? Junkyard? Dealer? I have a really hard time believing that is the only reason my car won't run when I plug in this OBD1 ECU from Phearable.net.

Some dude who put 2000 miles on it from Jan 2010 to May 2011 lol. I really want to blame him, but part of me says he didn't know the full extent of this crap I'm dealing with now. Either he lied to me big time or someone lied to him. I guess that's the nature of the used car scene, especially when it comes to modded cars like Hondas I didn't test drive it though. I had some family members go get it for me and test drive it and they said it was good. When I first got into it it was good. I had no other Prelude really to compare it to, so I didn't realize how slow and how much of a dog it was...or how much gas it went through, etc. Only until I started to try to tune it up did it get worse! lol

 

you can run without the balance shaft belt, and it shouldn't have killed anything else...someone correct me if i'm wrong. i cut mine off years ago way before doing a balance shaft removal.

yes, yes, and there are other injectors that work in our car...do some searching. car-parts.com

have you tried undoing everything you have done since you've gotten the car?

 

and how much are you willing to spend to get your car right? you may just want to count your losses and sell the car for what you can get out of it.

 

dynomiketuning@gmail.com

he's out of town for a couple of weeks, but he said he'd be glad to help you out. he's got a 552whp hatch, he helped me get my stock block h22 to 195whp(NA). he knows his stuff. he tuned me with chrome. i see you have the phearable chip...

 

injectors are injectors. there are low inmpediance and high impedance. the ecu will adjust for 750 the same as 400 as well as stock. the only way they will spray more is if they are told by the ecu to do so. its measured on the O2 sensor and TPS sensor. anyhting below 80 % throttle reads off the o2. anything more reads from maps off the ecu with no sensor input .

 

Thanks, I appreciate it. I'll tell him you sent me?

I do have the Phearable chip... and it doesn't work. I was actually able to hook up with a local guy who tried burning me a different new "ROM" chip or something to see if it would work? His chip did work... I mean, the car at least tried to idle. It didn't die right away, like it would with the Phearable chip. But it was in SERIOUS limp mode... So the guy hooked up his laptop and a "ROM Emulator" and was able to pull the CELs.... ? He said I was throwing a "Cylinder Position Sensor" code... told me something was up with the distributor. Sure, that makes sense... but he also said I probably now need a whole new distributor. And I should get an OBD1 one? Either that, or something is messed up with the current distributor's wiring from the dist. to the ECU?

He was able to burn me a new chip that ran the car though. He said the Phearable ECU wasn't working right? Like it was a bad chip? I don't know anymore, I am so freaking confused and lost and frustrated over all this. The chip he burned me makes the car run, but run so intermittently like crap. It bogs down soooo bad in low gears. Won't rev past 4000rpm. But then sometimes it surges ahead with more power without any additional throttle input from me.

The other route: The Honda dealer today tried going over everything with me... after putting a new oil pressure sender in for me (apparently whoever had the car before decided the original factory Honda sensor wasn't good enough and installed a goofy aftermarket one)... they discussed some options... Find a stock Prelude ECU somewhere. Buy a new immobilizer unit and then have them program everything with my keys back to the way it *should* be. I don't want to go this route if it's going to cost me a little more $.... but if it makes my car run right finally :/ idk

Now, I'm going to go out to my car and take out the gauge cluster and see if there is even a CEL lightbulb... because there probably isn't lol. The dealer did say that if I went back to a stock Prelude setup, at least we'd be able to read and see CELs and find out exactly what the problem is...

 

A little update...

Researching more about this Cylinder Position Sensor mystery of mine... so I might need a new distributor... and I might need to run an OBD1 distributor to make it work with my P72 OBD1 ECU? Er.....?

What is the stock distributor I should have on my car? Internal coil or external? I ask because I am looking up the part number that is stamped on my current distributor (TD-77U) and trying to make sense of this all... and making sure I have the right distributor? Otherwise, which one do I need?

 

If you want to run the p72 check and see what year car it came from...
P72 1 yes 1994-1995 Acura Integra GSR
P72 2 yes 1996-2000 Acura Integra GSR
P72 2 yes 1996-1999 Acura Integra GSR B18C

As u can see 94-95 its obd1 after that its obd2.... If you have an obd2 p72 u need a dizzy for a 97+ vtec prelude imo and it should be fine, if not then you need a dizzy for a 93-96 h22a1... autozone or advancedauto parts should cary remaned ones....

as for you injectors your stock ones require 200cc staturaded / Hi empedance for USDM.... I beleive a set of Eclipse 2nd Gen NON TURBO's have 280 saturaded injectors would be a replacement....

H22a1 93-95 I know have ~345ish and there peak and hold - someone fix me on the cc's i know im a bit off....

and the ITR's are 290cc and this mite be why they run well in your car because they are close to you stock injector size... Would also be why the ECU runs better in your car with them.

Hope the info is helpful

 

OMFG I wish Phearable would chime in here. He is the one I bought the ECU from. Why would he send me the wrong one? Or why would he not tell me if I needed a distributor to accompany my P72 I bought from him?

And he said my stock injectors are 290cc.

there is so much misinformation everywhere I turn I am so confused.

 

What did I tell you to do on the phone the other day? lol :-)

1. Check the codes, considering your check engine light isn't working on the vehicle you couldn't do this, hence I referred you to several EXPERIENCED tuners in your area to do this. You should also resolve any codes being thrown. (Which you have had the codes checked however you have not provided the exact code being thrown i.e. code 9?)

2. Determine the size of your injectors as they did not sound like they were the original 290cc injectors per the issue you are experiencing with bogging/idle.
(You have not done this)

3. If your injectors are not 290cc injectors, install stock obd2 97+ prelude h22 290cc injectors

4. The car should run perfectly once the malfunction indication codes are resolved & you are running the correct injectors.

-------------------------------

The tune put on your ecu can not be read with the crome software that your "tuner" was trying to open the rom with, hence his thought was that the program on the ecu was corrupt.

FYI: Injector size is really determined by what fuel pressure you flow the injector at.
Stock ITRs use 240cc high impedance injectors not 290cc as stated in this thread.
Stock Obd2 prelude injectors are 290cc high impedance.
Stock obd1 prelude injectors are low impedance and require a resistor box and use 340cc injectors.

So here are the instructions for you to resolve the issues you are experiencing:
1. Figure out what code is specifically being thrown. (code 9)? If your check engine light isn't working in your gauge cluster, pull the cluster & check if the bulb has been removed...
2. Resolve the code via the helms manual troubleshooting chart(s).
3. If the car still runs awkward, please verify that the injectors you have are 290cc, if they are not install stock 97+ obd2 prelude h22 290cc injectors.

Note: If the eprom chip we provided was modified/reprogrammed you are going to want to have it re-programmed with the original rom we provided for 290cc injectors.

If you have further questions, please contact me directly. Involving 100 people with false information in a troubleshooting situation is pointless & a waste of time.

 

excellent point...

 

There is alot of bad info.. I pulled this from this site under FAQ for IRT injector sizes and your stock injector size... the ecus I pulled from Honda swap... Ask him or look up the serial number on the side of the ECU to get what year it is... also do the said above.. it solve u alot of pains

 

First of all, who knows how to upgrade your membership so you can have more than like 1 message in your inbox at one time? lol

Second of all, I wanted to try giving everyone an update. I've been in contact with Phearable and the local guy who helped me out a little yesterday, but I wanted to post it all here too.

So now I have replaced my nasty air filter. Cleaned my IACV. And found out how NASTY my EGR valve was today. I don't know what one is SUPPOSED to look like, but this was so nasty. It just kept coming out in chunks and wouldn't stop. I went through 4 cans of carb cleaner and 1 bottle of Seafoam. And used my dental tools to pick and scrape the inside. Damn













NOW...

As for the codes and what I am trying to plan as my next course of action... Today I put a paper clip in the harness and got the P73 to flash some codes for me. I am getting codes 3 and 9.

With the P72 in there, it won't read anything. The CEL just stays on solid, doesn't flash. Did I mention that I pulled the dash out today and found out someone before me left the CEL bulb in there, but smashed it? SO yea, definitely malicious and not an accident.

Trying to decide if I should go buy a new distributor and MAP sensor tomorrow (code 3, right?). Just to see if that helps. But either way, I cannot run on the P72 until I resolve these issues. I just have a hard time believing the P73 is running my car better when it was never intended to lol. Anyways, the local guy who helped me out told me I need an OBD1 distributor and need to re-do the wiring from the oil pump to the distributor etc...and that I need an internal coil distributor.

My car came stock with an external distributor. TD-77U. So I think I should stick with a replacement model for that, no? I did pull the cap off today and I didn't see any dust or shavings or anything that might indicate bad distributor bearings? All was clean....

BUT, here's the kicker for the night. I did see some funk *** wiring that looked like it went to the oil pump. I am starting to wonder if the guy before me jacked with the distributor wiring... I see one wire that is all frayed and sheeeet. I know these pictures are not that great, but can anyone see what I'm talking about? Maybe I don't need a new distributor after all? If I can fix these wires? Some look soldered... some look frayed. There are two wires over on the distributor harness that are soldered also. I'll take pics of those tomorrow.














PS: this is what the local tuner guy told me I should probably do? :

 

Your car is a mess!

An obd2 prelude distributor with an external coil & CKP/TDC sensor on the oil pump works without any issues with an obd1 ecu:
I have personally tuned cars with a crank position sensor on the oil pump without a single issues.
Watch the video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vrh01...layer_embedded
Please inform your tuner that he is wrong. An obd2 prelude distributor will work with an obd1 ecu without issues!

Concerning a solution to your code 9 & code 3:
If your timing tensioner has failed or your timing belt has slipped, the ecu will throw a code 9.
Your distributor may have a bad cyp sensor inside of it, hence it would need replacement.
Troubleshoot the issues via the factory helms manual at your local honda dealer.

Have you tried checking the codes once the car is running on the obd1 p72? (Some codes won't pop up until the car is up and running).
Hopefully your "tuner" re-installed the original rom we provided.

I sent you an email too...
Please reply to me via email, it is quicker for me to respond to so I can help you figure out your nightmare of a car!

 

Thanks Phearable, I responded to your email.


Does anyone else have any suggestions or comments about that wiring mess I took pictures of above? I just want to get it back to stock and how it is SUPPOSED to be. Just not even sure what that looks like.

What is, and where do I get the Helms manual? Pay for it from a dealer? I'm sure there are some free ones circulating around the internet, no?

 

helms go to an auto part store and buy it man.. there like maybe $25 bucks or download one online... lol i got a 1400+ page manual for 93-96 ludes lmao..

 

I used to work at Advance Auto Parts, and I don't recall any manual for any car by the name of Helms. Do you mean Haynes? Or Chilton? If so, I couldn't find that they made a version for our Preludes unfortunately (just like my WRX for some reason).

I did google Helms though.... I guess you download the .pdf huh? Is there no technical archive of uploaded files like that anywhere floating around on the 'net? Or on our Honda forums?

 

OK so please help me get this straight guys. I have an OBD2 distributor, external coil. My CKP/TDC sensors are on/by the oil pump and crank, right?

But my CYP sensor is in my distributor? I need to know because not only did the Honda dealer just do a whole new timing belt job with all the belts, pumps, tensioners, etc....but also because I think I may be onto something here. If the dealer jacked something up, then I can have them fix that part of the equation. BUT, it was running like pure crap before I took it to them anyways when the balance shaft belt tensioner seized and/or the balance belt snapped. So I think the issue was there still with regard to the Code 9 I am getting. CYP sensor....

I'm just trying to make sense of all this so bare with me... because my wiring is hacked up on the distributor side of things, the crank sensor area side of things, and the ECU side of things. Researching more into this further on some other threads, I think maybe those 3 wires that were butt-spliced connected on my ECU have something to do with those other two things. I took some pictures today of the distributor wiring hack job. The pictures from yesterday/the day before are from down by the crank sensor. I tried also snapping some pics again of that today:



















Here is my proposed solution. Well, one idea anyways. Picked up an entire harness at the junkyard today. Was going to try to fix those places where the wiring is all frayed and jacked with in an attempt to fix stuff? I mean, if the wiring is that bad as you can see, why wouldn't I want to start there? Doesn't make sense to go replacing all these things like the CYP sensor if in fact it's not actually bad at all and it's just the wiring, right? Just throwing stuff out there...






SOOOO... what does everyone think? I am guessing that hairball wiring by the crank sensor oil pump is going to be a major PITA to get to :/

And here's a picture of my ECU before I tried fixed those buttsplice connectors. It's making a little more sense know... I think maybe that's why someone tapped into those wires on the ECU. I'm thinking about peeling back the electrical tape a little tomorrow and see what surprises I might find in there.... since apparently there is a wiring fix/bypass for disabling the CYP sensor or the CKP/TDC out there: http://ff-squad.com/wp/?p=309 - and some of that matches up with the crap on my ECU harness:

 

Now after a little more research...

I think I should try getting an OBD1 distributor with the CYP and everything in the distributor and just run a conversion harness?

 

Yes it was a down loaded PDF ... I have the 97-2000 service manual for your car as well.. its 169mB in size i can share it on fileplanet or something later if u wish... let me know

 

On my way out to the car today to try to mess around with the wiring some more, I saw some crap in my exhaust. Pulled a little bit of it out...








99% sure that's due to my rich condition. Catalytic converter failure. Horrible fuel smell, loud as F***, etc etc.

Then I start to look at my ECU wiring harness. It never seemed or felt right to me. I am surprised no one pointed it out earlier, unless this is seriously the way Honda wires this from the factory?!?!?!?!? What is this solid green tubing wrap that covers two wires and goes god-knows-how-far up into the factory harness wrap??

And see that thing that looks spliced? The little crimp connector? Not good. WTF modified this car?!?!? I am seriously about to give up. I bought a Honda because I thought it was easy to work on, cheap, reliable, etc etc. I'm about to sell it and go back to my Jeep. And I hate my Jeep. But it sadly runs better than my Prelude right now :/

I am going to get on my knees and beg for some help... is there anyone who knows what's going on? Maybe someone can call me. I need help bad.