2.7 Degrees of Caster on Integra gs-r
Will this much caster put too much pressure on certain parts and possibly cause something to break?
I swapped my ucas and didn't expect this much of a caster increase.
I know that it will increase bump steer, but I really haven't noticed much and I think the car is more enjoyable to drive now.
Here's a link to the thread that explains how I got to this point...
https://honda-tech.com/forums/suspension-brakes-54/skunk-2-kit-caster-2853374/
I swapped my ucas and didn't expect this much of a caster increase.
I know that it will increase bump steer, but I really haven't noticed much and I think the car is more enjoyable to drive now.
Here's a link to the thread that explains how I got to this point...
https://honda-tech.com/forums/suspension-brakes-54/skunk-2-kit-caster-2853374/
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 29,940
Likes: 59
From: Nowhere and Everywhere
replied in other thread...
I don't see how increasing caster could put any additional pressure or stress on anything. All the suspension pieces are connected with bearings, ball joints, and bushings that all rotate and move around. Swapping the UCA's moves the UCA ball joint backward slightly, which rotates the top of the knuckle towards the rear, and moves the steering tie rod ball joint connection down slightly.
The lower ball joint and lower control arm should stay in the same place, and the CV axle outboard joint will move backwards every so slightly, but everything should still be within their intended range of motion.
I don't see how increasing caster could put any additional pressure or stress on anything. All the suspension pieces are connected with bearings, ball joints, and bushings that all rotate and move around. Swapping the UCA's moves the UCA ball joint backward slightly, which rotates the top of the knuckle towards the rear, and moves the steering tie rod ball joint connection down slightly.
The lower ball joint and lower control arm should stay in the same place, and the CV axle outboard joint will move backwards every so slightly, but everything should still be within their intended range of motion.
I agree with Patrick.
In other news, more positive caster will introduce more steering kick-back, but not bumpsteer. I keep reading that about caster and I go nuts. The greater the caster angle the greater the tendancy of the car to track straight as an arrow seemingly unaffected by anything else. Bumpsteer is introduced when tie rods do not point to instant centers. Bumpsteer, for the most part, is introduced when we lower cars. Some cars are mildly affected by bumpsteer after lowering and some become un-controllable at speed. The 2001 Civic generation and RSX had huge bumpsteer after lowering.
Caster angle projects a point on the ground and the tire always follows that point in the straight ahead. The greater the angle and or the farther out in front of the tire this point is projected the stronger the aligning force is on the tire. Lots of caster is almost anti-bumpsteer because lots of caster will reduce steering mechanical leverage - turn-in literally slows.
We can have positive caster angle and zero trail. This means the caster angle intersects the ground at the center of the contact patch in side view. We get mechanical trail when the caster angle projects this point beyond the tire's centerline in side view. Too much caster angle or trail is also repsonsible for diluting steering feel because the self align force on the projected point becomes so strong it washes out all of the other subtle messages coming from the tires. Caster cannot correct overly light steering found on many Honda products. In my opinion it makes a slightly annoying feeling much worse.
You may well find that steering feel and turn-in improve when positive caster angle is reduced, not increased. Steering effort will also be reduced...and if you are autoXing you may well experiment with this notion. In theory you get better feel and faster turn-in. SAI returnability is also preserved with less caster.
In other news, more positive caster will introduce more steering kick-back, but not bumpsteer. I keep reading that about caster and I go nuts. The greater the caster angle the greater the tendancy of the car to track straight as an arrow seemingly unaffected by anything else. Bumpsteer is introduced when tie rods do not point to instant centers. Bumpsteer, for the most part, is introduced when we lower cars. Some cars are mildly affected by bumpsteer after lowering and some become un-controllable at speed. The 2001 Civic generation and RSX had huge bumpsteer after lowering.
Caster angle projects a point on the ground and the tire always follows that point in the straight ahead. The greater the angle and or the farther out in front of the tire this point is projected the stronger the aligning force is on the tire. Lots of caster is almost anti-bumpsteer because lots of caster will reduce steering mechanical leverage - turn-in literally slows.
We can have positive caster angle and zero trail. This means the caster angle intersects the ground at the center of the contact patch in side view. We get mechanical trail when the caster angle projects this point beyond the tire's centerline in side view. Too much caster angle or trail is also repsonsible for diluting steering feel because the self align force on the projected point becomes so strong it washes out all of the other subtle messages coming from the tires. Caster cannot correct overly light steering found on many Honda products. In my opinion it makes a slightly annoying feeling much worse.
You may well find that steering feel and turn-in improve when positive caster angle is reduced, not increased. Steering effort will also be reduced...and if you are autoXing you may well experiment with this notion. In theory you get better feel and faster turn-in. SAI returnability is also preserved with less caster.
Last edited by meb58; Dec 13, 2010 at 12:04 PM.
Steering kickback is not bump steer? That's exactly what it is. If your steering wheel moves AT ALL when you go over bumps, then you've got bump steer. If your talking about the Self-Aligning Moment (letting go of the wheel and having it return to center), then that is the effect of Caster only.
Honda did a lot of wizardry to minimize/eliminate bumpsteer on the Double Wishbone EG6/DC2 chassis. I once personally screwed that up (swapping UCAs) and paid the price with years of poor suspension performance.
In general, adding friction and resistance to your suspension is not a good idea. If you are adding caster to minimize bump steer effects then you are probably making more of a problem than resolving it. The forces that cause the wheel to turn are induced with the suspension compression/droop. Those forces are going to be there regardless of whether there is a lot of mechanical trail inducing a self-centering effect. You are basically introducing a bunch of resisting forces that are doing nothing to improve the grip of the tire.
It seems when you add caster to the EG knuckle, there is no way to do that without also tilting the knuckle backward which rotates the tie rod downward causing it to no longer line up with the Instant Center of the linkage in a Front View. More caster would make this worse. With stock components, I just don't see how you can add Caster without increasing the bumpsteer in our cars. In order to do it, you would have to make an adjustable height mounting point for the tie rod on the knuckle.
Honda did a lot of wizardry to minimize/eliminate bumpsteer on the Double Wishbone EG6/DC2 chassis. I once personally screwed that up (swapping UCAs) and paid the price with years of poor suspension performance.
In general, adding friction and resistance to your suspension is not a good idea. If you are adding caster to minimize bump steer effects then you are probably making more of a problem than resolving it. The forces that cause the wheel to turn are induced with the suspension compression/droop. Those forces are going to be there regardless of whether there is a lot of mechanical trail inducing a self-centering effect. You are basically introducing a bunch of resisting forces that are doing nothing to improve the grip of the tire.
It seems when you add caster to the EG knuckle, there is no way to do that without also tilting the knuckle backward which rotates the tie rod downward causing it to no longer line up with the Instant Center of the linkage in a Front View. More caster would make this worse. With stock components, I just don't see how you can add Caster without increasing the bumpsteer in our cars. In order to do it, you would have to make an adjustable height mounting point for the tie rod on the knuckle.
I ran for 3 years with +4* of caster on my 2000 GSR.
Swapped SPC UCAs adjusted for max caster.
Horrendous bumpsteer and steering kickback was the result.
Ignoring that, the best argument to run the UCAs on the correct side of the car is suspension travel. You lose some compression travel when the upper balljoint has been moved back, as the UCA doesn't fit into the shock tower pocket as easily (it hits sooner). I have dented shock towers from UCA contact.
Swapped SPC UCAs adjusted for max caster.
Horrendous bumpsteer and steering kickback was the result.
Ignoring that, the best argument to run the UCAs on the correct side of the car is suspension travel. You lose some compression travel when the upper balljoint has been moved back, as the UCA doesn't fit into the shock tower pocket as easily (it hits sooner). I have dented shock towers from UCA contact.
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