::UPDATE: Internal pics in post below!

Sorry about the long post, but I need some expert advice, ASAP, please!

I had a local transmission shop install a Quaife LSD into my transmission...

While reinstalling the trans into the car, I noticed the reverse idler gear shaft bolt was MISSING!

The shop assured me everything else was good and I should just replace the reverse idler gear shaft bolt.

So, I did this and I get the trans back into the car and it would NOT go in gear when the engine is running. No grinding, just "locked out" feeling. Most of the time when the engine was off, I could get it into gear.

I bled the hell out of the clutch and if I started the car in gear, everything felt normal with the clutch (no dragging, no sinking, good engagement height) and the car would move and not move as you'd expect depending on the position of the clutch pedal.

Despite this, I still replaced the master/slave cylinders and again bled the hell out of the system...still no good. I saw no leaks from the clutch hydraulic system, either.

So, I pulled the trans. The NEW ACT/Fidanza clutch/PP/flywheel/TOB assembly all looks good.

However, when I drained the transmission, the oil (Honda MTF) was quite glittery and really a bit dark for not having left my driveway. I caught it in a clean plastic bag...those specs aren't bubbles...




This is what I was able to catch from that in a fine screen:

My obvious thought is that something is royally screwed inside, considering there are 0.001 Miles on this transmission and visible metal is present in the fluid (Honda MTF, btw.)

Expert advice?!

Is this a totally unacceptable amount of metal for .0001 miles (and 30 minutes of idling/fiddling) after having the diff replaced?

Does it probably need a rebuild?

What should the shop be obligated to do at this point?

Is this potentially unrelated to the shifting issue?

 

cant diagnose much from looking at a case. Gonna have to come back apart and see whats wrong. Make sure the spring loaded bolts for the shift forks have the washer. Without the waster, the ball at the end of the bolt will lock the forks in place.

 

Thanks for the reply. I know it's a bit of a "black box" problem, at this point.

I guess I'm not wanting a specific diagnosis, but rather the likelihood of the shop having messed something up that would need to be replaced, for sure, considering the metal fragments. Bearings?

I just want to make sure I don't get smoke blown up my *** when I go back with it.

 

they forgot to put in a very important bolt. That by itself would tell me to blow smoke up the shops *** to get them to figure out whats wrong.

i would definitely check for the washer behind the spring loaded bolt tho before blowing the shop up. To do a LSD install, you dont have to do much with the counter and mainshaft assembly other than pick it up and put it out of the way. And there isnt really a way to get the case back on without having everything line up properly as far as the forks and locking washer.

 

Yeah, after reviewing the Helms manual, I regret not doing it, myself. I just thought determining the proper diff bearing preload/shim would be a pain.

Do you think there's a good chance I escaped any real damage? I just want to know enough to not let them pull one over on me and waste more time/money pulling this in and out of my car in the lovely Pacific Northwest Winter! ha

Thanks again for the advice. I will particularly mention the spring washer. If that was missing, would I be able to shift it, off the car?

 

no, it will not shift. if they tightened that bolt down without the washer, you will have to get two new spring loaded bolts and ***** because the ball will be stuck in the hollow end of the bolt. There is a spring embeded inside the bolt that extends past the tip. There are notches in the shift forks that the ***** ride in which helps lock the lever in place. If the ball has no give, the fork isnt going anywhere.

 

Without the washers it will not shift. Even with used washers you can still have problems. As far as all the metal particles it depends on if they tore the rest of the trans down. If they didn't it could be debris that was in the main and counter shafts. I'd go ahead and tear it down though.

 

The shop was instructed to just replace the diff...so, they should have just pulled the shafts, and swapped the diff bearings/races, they shouldn't have done any more (don't know if that's helpful info?)

I can move the shift levers on the trans, with the trans out of the car. One moves into three positions, and the other two (making a total of six gear, which makes sense, right?)

The shop actually has a really good reputation, so I'm going to see if I can't drop it off tomorrow.

Are there any parts (such as said washers) I should insist on being replaced while its there? This is an M2Y4 trans from a 99 Prelude Base, btw.

I didn't get a bill for any of the many small parts that the helms manual says to replace, so I'd assume they didn't...

 

Yes, they should replace the washers.

 

I'll be sure to tell them to replace those washers...just to be clear, these are the two washers that go on the outside of the transmission (Illustration parts number 9 in this picture?): http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/...=MT+SHIFT+FORK

Anything else that should be replaced, hell or high water, when busting open a transmission or replacing the diff?

Sorry to make this trans 101...just trying to stay on top of them!

 

Well, the shop opened up the transmission and said everything looked good, as far as the moving assembly that they could see. They said the metal in the fluid was from the case being welded in the past and that whoever welded it had not cleaned the slag from the inside and it had just broken free.

This makes some sense, but there's the fact I didn't notice the case had been welded until I picked it up from the shop, the first time. So, there's a possibility they broke the case and rewelded it. This would explain why the slag suddenly broke loose after I put 10k miles on the transmission, plus whatever the previous owner put on it. However, I can't be 100% sure of this, so I'm still willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Though, of course, I am now missing my clutch fork boot, one of the transmission case bolts isn't fully seated (I can get my fingernail underneath it) and the reverse idler gear shaft bolt was about 10lb-ft low on the torque, according to my basically new torque wrench.

Needless to say, I'm pretty disappointed in the whole affair. They can't even tighten bolts properly. Am I being unreasonable?

So, should I have the gear clusters disassembled to make sure no metal is in them? I really don't want to spend any more money than necessary, but I also don't want to cause damage to the trans and/or Quaife. Thoughts?

The shop said I should just change the oil soon and see if there is still metal in it and change it frequently. This seems like a risky solution.

 

If it was mine I would tear it down completely and inspect.

 

That's what I'm feeling, too. Do you think it would be unreasonable to ask for my money back from the shop? I hate to, since they have been really nice, but this is basically a **** job, IMO.

Thanks for all your thoughts on this. Bringing this trans to them is only the second time I've had a shop work on one of my cars in almost a decade, and is reminding me why.

 

too big of a risk to run it as is, i would say that is an unhealthy amount of metal, unless they scraped the magnet clean but left the shavings inside the case or something moronic like that.
If it was my trans the shafts would be completely dis-assembled and cleaned out, along with all bearings and moving parts.

 

I would tell them you want it completely torn down, cleaned, inspected, and assembled for no extra charge. If they won't do that then seek a refund.

 

^^ and if they're ******** about it, be sure to return their dirty oil in whichever way seems most fitting

 

Wow that is completely un-acceptable. How do a bunch of ****ing hacks have a good reputation? Bolts not seated, bolts missing, shift boot missing, 10lbs of metal shavings inside.....holy **** what a bunch of clowns!! They should stay away from building these things. It makes me angry to hear this because i rebuild transmissions and i could never send something out the door like that and treat customers how there treating you. I guess there are some careless people out there that dont give 2 ****s about doing things properly.

 

Yeah, it is pretty crappy. To be fair, I found my clutch fork boot, in my parts box. So, they only lost one bolt and presumably bent the other.

I told them I was unhappy with their mechanical work, but haven't asked for my money back, until I see what all is going on inside.

I think I just want to get a different transmission or at least case (since this one has had a potentially bad repair), but Prelude transmissions are a bit expensive...

Can I swap my gear clusters (99 Prelude M2Y4) into an Accord transmission of the same era? My real dream would be to keep most of my gears, but have the Accord 5th for more economical cruising

 

I also say tear it down and inspect it... will give you some piece of mind if all is good or some evidence of a bad assembly job. Good luck and hope for the best!

 

Thanks! That is my plan, at this point. I'm trying to figure out if I can just buy an F22 or F23 transmission and use that case with my gear clusters. They're quite a few hundred dollars cheaper and I'd eliminate the case repair as a potential point of failure. I'd also like to switch to one of those 5th gears...I have a supercharger on the car and can only see up sides to a taller 5th!

 

Where in Portland are you taking this?

 

I had the work done at Bradshaw's Transmission Annex. I really like to avoid bad-mouthing, even if it's true :p

Currently, I'm not taking it anywhere...I was going to pick up an M2L5 transmission from a 93 Prelude S (F22 engine.)

This should bolt right up and also accept my Quaife. The only possible downside is the longer gearing...we'll see. I may be able to swap some gears around, but I'm unsure...

Thoughts, suggestions? I see you're local and recalling seeing you know something about transmissions

 

I opened up the transmission and there was metal all over the place inside and it's obvious they just didn't care about cleaning it. I could wipe my finger on ANY surface of the case and come up with visible metal. Super lame, since it would be a guaranteed failure in the near future, since the mainshaft was completely clogged with metal.





^^^Metal goober that came out of one of the mainshaft oil holes, in one piece...note all the silver on the rest of the paper towel, from wiping down other parts of the trans...

I have two ACTUAL QUESTIONS in regard to salvaging it:
1) The 5th gear synchro sleeve looks all mushroomed out...I don't think they would have messed with this, but that looks all crappy and the trans worked like butter, previously. What's up with that? Is this normal(ish) wear?


2) The speedo gear is all chipped up. This only shows 2 chips, but there are probably 8 going around the perimeter. I put the diff back in, without the main and countershafts, so that I can check the preload and I can hear the speedo gear spinning and making a rough irregular sound. Not a good sound.



So, is it a reasonable assumption they beat the speedo ring gear? Has anyone seen a speedo gear this chewed up without being molested? I have little experience with this.

 

They would have messed the speedo gear up by pulling it off of the old diff. They can be a pain, but I've only messed one up before (on my boss's personal car no less). lol I filed it down and got everything nice again though, even though portions were chipped off, and it worked fine.

The oil orifices should have been inspected and checked by the shop. They screwed that up by not clearing the passages. Whoever did it was probably just being a bit lazy that day. If that is standard practice from them, however, to neglect the oil passages, they shouldn't be touching one.

The 5th gear sleeve's teeth looks bad from that angle but can't see for sure just how bad. That is normal wear for a high mileage trans that was beat on or had synchronizer ring failure. With that being mushroomed that badly, I'm sure the hub is scored up a lot.

 

If I spin the diff, I can hear something that doesn't sound right...irregular scraping. I'd assume that's no good? (To clarify, I mean the speedo gear should be smooth in operation, and it is not. It's not a constant scraping, just making an uneven sound. Ugh.)

Should the 5th gear sleeve slide completely over the hub. Should I be able to drop the hub through the ring? I see the 3/4th sleeve/hub has a catch that won't allow this, but the only thing that seems to be stopping it on the 5th is mushroomed teeth. I can't really speak to the history of the trans before I got it (whether or not it was beat on), but it was working totally fine with no grinds, before bringing it to them.

I'm just really unsure what to do about all this. They claim it's not their fault, but they've done crappy work all around and it was fine before I brought it there...so, I guess I just answered my question?