Hi Guys/Gals,

I need your help! I just got back from trying to pass state ref. My car failed the 15mph test in NO & HC's, and passed the 25mph. He stated after testing, it had a misfire @ 15mph which makes sense looking at the read-out. At the bottom is the actual print out. No Codes, No MIL's, etc

Background info.:
Both Engine & Car are 96, It's a USDM b18c1. Freshly built, w/ 700 miles on setup. It has p30 pistons ( est. c/r 11:8.1 ), and CTR Cams adj. gears @ 0. Block was decked .008 and the Head milled .010, running on the factory OB2a p72 ECU.

Yesterday I went for my visual and passed, but my distributor was in the advanced position, and it was shot w/ a light prior to inspection @ 16 BTDC . Car ran great throughout the whole power band according to my butt dyno over the past week. The ref told me visually I was fine, but, he would like that dizzy fixed before we proceeded ( he wanted it more center ), sound normal?

I told him alright, I'll fix it and reschedule. Baffled by the issue, my friend and I began searching for a fix in correlation to timing. When he came across this thread explaining milling and timing. We followed it to the "T," adjusting int & exh 3+ allowing us to center the dizzy more. Then we re-shot timing at 16 BTDC. Went it for my test today and failed!???

milling & timing thread
https://honda-tech.com/forums/all-motor-naturally-aspirated-44/will-milling-head-change-cam-timing-retard-597028/

 

I think your catalytic converter may be bad.

 

It's actually a pretty new cat, and before it was installed the muffler shop checked it out visually they said it was good, that's the only way they'd install it w/out me buying from them....?

- not negating the fact, just adding what I was told.

 

My suggestion came from the fact that both HC and NO are over the limit at 15 mph.

 

If it was a factory compression engine I'd accept that, no problem. I've read many threads and that was the common.

 

In general, when HC is high, NO should be low, and vice versa.

Nonetheless, if you think that misfire is the cause of the test failure, then the first place to start would be with the plugs, wires, cap, and rotor.

 

bad cat with exhaust leak lol

 

Alright I will start there. Plan to swap dizzy tomorrow. Plugs, wires, cap, rotor are all brand new.

Exhaust system is also new, no leaks. Now can a cat be bad and not visible?

Few questions - GSR NOOB:

* Since the car is mildly modded and it's UNTUNED, Can the Higher Compression on a stock ECU be responsible for both HC's & NOx @ idle?

* Can a Vafc tune help these conditions, until after bar ( assuming it's hidden of course )?

* If I ran a p73 and sacrificed the operation of butterflies would this cause a CEL?

 

Here is my take...

O2 reading is low = cat is good. A cat can look good but be contaminated. Such as a headgasket failure and had coolant run thru it.

I would go back to stock setting as much as possible.

I would set your cam timing to 0.
You should not worry about the position the dizzy is at, Just that the timing is correct.

Your rich at both 15 & 25 Now this could be from a misfire in one cyl and the others are lean and causing Nox. You can have lean and rich misfires also.

Are you running with stock injectors with stock fuel pressure? And a stock ECU?

Have you checked the O2 sensor ('s) before the cat? This is a possibility.

You might be stuck with too much compression and not being able to overcome this. Then you might need a brand new cat. It might be able to handle those numbers. I take it that the cat on the car is for the B18 correct, and not for the d motor.

That is all for now.

 

The cams are at zero, According to the thread I linked. For every .012 santhds mill, the cam must be advance 1 degree. Rounding up I have a total of .020 thousandths removed. So we adjusted the cam gear, so now the gears read 2.5 degrees but "0". That adjustment to the gear, allowed me to center the dizzy, more to it's housing while shot @ 16 BTDC. The distributor was only the concern of the ref, not ours, it was in the advance position ( but not maxed out ) @ 16 BTDC the first time I went in. The ref told me to fix that, even though it was @ 16 BTDC.

I do have a magnaflow/carsound OBDII 50 state cat ( not hi-flow or anything), stock ECU, stock injectors, and no gauge was used to check fuel psi. The O2 I have not checked. Also I do not know the age of the O2 so it being lazy is a possibility.

I have no misfire codes, and have never had any codes since I began driving the car, the plugs are white at the electrode and just be for the threads it is dark. Clearly showing my rich / lean conditions.

so my things to do list should look like this: ?

2 x 02 sensors ( primary & secondary ) and a Distributor for now. Does anyone think a VAFC may increase my chances of correcting the issue? a proper tune is really what this setup lacks.

 

Just do the primary 02. The secondary 02 checks on the cat only. So I would back the cams to 1.5 or 2. If you go to far you take a chance of increasing compression or messing with ignition which is what you are having problems with.

 

WOW cali and their emissions can suck a fart outta my a**.

Anyways an old trick my dad taught me, I was having the same issue..almost exact same numbers on a High Comp GSR but i am running no cat, and this is what I did as recommended by my dad and i blew "zeros" practically

1) run the car down to about 1/4 tank of gas
2) locate a shop or dealer who sells METHANOL
3) buy a gallon and put it in the tank mixed w/ the gas you already have
4) take the car out for a 45-1 hour drive and get the methanol good and through the system and mixed in
5) go to take your emissions test and run the car in a gear lower then you usually would, this will heat up the cat more and burn all the excess gases much better.

I practically cut all my numbers in 1/3 by doing this and passed easily

 

Will do.

all of that sounded well except for #5. If the ref will hear me out that might not be too bad, he's knows a bit about hondas and was pretty cool. He knew I had cams before I ever said anything. He also spotted my JDM ITR headers and was fine w/ that. They now do in house dyno, and If it was as simple as taking my car elsewhere to pass smog after the state inspection, I would have passed ages ago.

...I will still bring it up to him after I get some money and change those parts.

 

Hes not going to be able to tell your running methanol unless he were to chemically test your fuel... a 4:1 ratio (gas:meth) will not make a different smell or cause the car to run any different.

 

I never said that, I said #5 was the only issue. I cant tell him how to do his testing. haha

 

OH NOOOOO i meant on the drive to the emissions test get the cat as warm as possible. instead of lower rpm go down a gear and turn it a bit higher. example: down the freeway go in 4th instead of 5th

 

FUEL PRESSURE REGULATOR.... at lower rpm the high fuel pressure will cause the engine to run rich. but at around 2500 rpm or more its stoic.. its not a cat!... make sure the fpr is getting a good vacuum from the manifold and the hose isnt collapsing. if vacuum is good then its probably a bad pressure regulator. easy concept long explanation. if you care to hear ask

 

and don"t do this... though it is true methanol produces way less emissions than regular gas don't do it unless you want to replace your fuel system... methanol is highly corrosive... that's why flex fuel cars use stainless steel in pretty much everything and have plastic fuel tanks... you'd end up with rust filled injectors

 

FALSE, not after a 3 or 4:1 mixture with regular unleaded fuel. If it was a continuous thing then I would agree, but a one time, one gallon shot wont do anything.

 

Lol gotcha.

I'm open and ready to listen. I've had no Hg problems prior. I had my buddy who owns a shop do all the plumbing and wiring since I knew Gsr plumbing was confusing and this was my first swap.

Thanks for that heads up. I just got off the phone with another buddy of mine who also owns a shop. We briefly discussed this as well, he said instead of meth use 100 octane and my vafc to subtract fuel, After I replace my O2.

 

4:1 ..... now you are just talkin about whats already in the pump... all gas is already diluted to 15 to 20 % methanol some states are even trying to pass a law making it legal to put up to 25% in the "GAS" pumps

 

Im talking 3-4 gallons of unleaded gasoline with 1 gallon of pure meth. thats my 4:1 ratio...in gallons

 

a typical fpr (including Honda's) works using a "tuned" spring and manifold vacuum... at low work loads the vacuum is higher helping the spring, opening the small valve lessening fuel pressure. at higher engine loads the absence of the vacuum keeps the small valve "closed" making fuel pressure go up. this makes it so the computer doesn't have to vary the injectors pulse width a lot. Okay now imagine you're at a sink that has low water pressure, turn the valve all the way on. not a lot of water coming out... but if the sink had high water pressure a lot of water would be flowing through it.. now in this case if your car calls for not a lot a fuel but the pressure regulator is closed causing high pressure you'd be dumping to much fuel into the combustion chamber. that will cause high HC emission and in some high compression scenarios can cause elevated NOX

 

Clearly explained. I have 1/2 fprs in my garage. I will swap one at a time per test. So next try will be a new O2 & FPR. Tomorrow I am going to the shop and swapping distributors an retard some of the cam advance we added earlier.


Thus far I want to thank you all for your input.

 

UPDATE:

Today I changed the primary O2 ( wires @ sensor upon removal had some exposed wires), dizzy, pcv valve, and reset cam timing, tomorrow I go back @ 12:50. Wish me Luck! Couldn't find my other FPR but I won't stop looking.

also guys, I forgot I am running colder plugs, a 7? will that affect my emissions that much?

This is the denso replacement for gsr ( $69 ), I returned it because of wiring length. It was shorter than stock and was trouble to connect to my engine harness


I got this only $5 difference in price $65, o.e. civic replacement w/ a longer harness. Plugs up beautifully with more reach.