Ok, looking at the Nationals results and all these 2800-3000lb bimmer pigs in DSP (I still love those cars though). Then looking at the results in CSP where the little lightweight low power cars are faster and by a good margin... What FWD DSP car do you think has a reasonable chance to take them pigs down???

I guesstimate it would take the following imaginary car (with an imaginary driver that could drive the $hiiit outta it, of course):

2200-2300lbs at the MOST, mfg rated weight
~120hp in stock form with lotsa room and support for improvement
Good atermarket support for chassis/suspension parts
Ideally should be able to fit 13x8 with some 225-45-13s gumballs

So this leaves the usuall Honda crowd favorites out, ie: Preludes, GSRs, 99+ Si cuz they are all pigs just like the Bimmers, hehe And IMO, given a good RWD and good FWD car of roughly the same weight, power and level of preparation, the RWD car will whoop the FWD any time...

So, looking at the (somewhat outdated) Moutons.org classifications, I can only come up with a handfull of cars that meet those criteria

-84-87 Scirocco 16V
-92-95 Civic Si (which is supposed to move to DSP, last I heard?)
-88-89 Integra RS

Not sure about the weight on these though, but i think they're close:

-Early Sentra SE-R
-NX2000

What do you think?

PS: I realize this subject has rpobably been beaten to death in the past, but I think the timing is right to revisit it and maybe hear some new ideas?

 

Integra GSR. You can get those down to ~2400lbs or less in SP trim and you can run 13x8 wheels. Throw enough money at it and it *could* win DSP.

Or, the 92-95 Civic Si, with a 92 or 93 being preferred for lighter weight.

I don't think the VW will be competitive in DSP either.

 

Sounds like you want to drive a 7th generation Celica GT.

Yes, I think a 2000+ Celica GT could run with the BMW's (as well as any FWD car could). On the right course the GTS would be OK, but the more usable power band and lighter weight of the GT make it my choice.

Of course, if the AE86 Corolla gets the bump out of FSP, then why not get a RWD car and have a lot of fun! Too bad the new Civic Si is so porky, it might have a shot.

What about the 2000 Civic Si? How much did it weigh. Same questoin about the high end Del Sol, what did those weigh.

Scott

Scott

 

I know of a particular SE-R that had some reasonable success at Nationals with 14x7 wheels and 205 rubber... So, also given some allowable weight reduction that a certain HT board member didn't do and some 13x7 with 225s up front....

Only if you find a hard top... Good luck.

 

Considering Taka beat DSP by about 0.8 seconds in his FSP corolla. He was hauling. This is not the first time this season he did that either. That car should not be in FSP that is for sure.

As far as the GSR, it is very capable. Mike Neary was right there with DSP top cars raw times on the North course. Unfortunately, he tipped a cone on the fast run. This was not a time saving cone either. Mike has the very basics of SP in his car right now. And the engine is in need of a rebuild. If he is able to develop the car further, get some more weight out of it, get some more low end torque with a propersly built SP engine, he is very capable of being VERY fast.


[Modified by Crosser, 11:44 AM 9/18/2002]


[Modified by Crosser, 11:48 AM 9/18/2002]

 

In my 2000 Honda Civic I've been about 1-2 seconds behind the DSP cars. We have BMW 2002s, Fiat X1/9, and a Neon. I'm running in STS and wish I had a chance to throw on some race rubber to see how I would stack up against them.

My car 2700lbs, ~170hp in almost full STS trim except lighter reclinable seats, bushings, and camber plates. Figure race tires should give a 1-2 second advantage on a 60 second course and then add on LSD, ECU, bushings, lighter wheels I should be pretty competitive

 

IIRC, my old Sentra SE-R weighed 2460 w/o me in it -- good for 10th place in Topeka last year in DSP. It had Corbeau seats (measley 8 lb savings per seat over stock) but it still had the factory sunroof, AC, cruise, and radio. Getting rid of all that and adding a bit lighter rims (and maybe even lighter seats), it would probably be in the mid 2300# range. It still had some room in the HP department, too, as it had full emissions on a 125K engine that had never been cracked open.

 

Locally, yes. Nationally--that car doesn't have enough torque to mount a serious challenge IMO. Not trying to be mean, but a newer Si would not be my choice for DSP. Given an equally equipped GSR with more power (and weight being pretty much the same), the GSR will always win.

 

Mark Chiles was running wider tires than me on his *stock* SE-R.

 

I think the GSR is very competitive with the right driver.

Right now my cars weighs 2519 (autocross preped) and I just had the a/c removed so it should be below 2500. I can also replace both of the heavy leather seats and steering wheel and shave more pounds.

Well over 120hp stock

Good after market support

13x7.5s (13x8.5 if I had more money) fit with 235 gumballs

As I mentioned before I think my car has plenty of potential, it's just the driver holding the car back now.

 

Oh I forgot ... a FWD car already won DSP last year. It wasn't a Honda or Nissan or even an import.

 

Yup, if you can get the Neons to hold together long enough, they are capable too.

 

Yeah, how could I forget the Neon

The Celica is not a bad idea, 2425lbs according to Toyota...140hp and a good chassis...Hmmm....Kinda almost sounds like a G2 Teg RS ...

From experience, i know that mfgs allways claim higher weights than reality. So saying that it is possible to get a GSR down to 2500lbs actual weight is not a fair comparison. There is no way you could trim almost 300lbs in SP. As an example, I know a couple of people with G1 Tegs that weigh in below 2100lbs in SP trim and those cars are rated at 2300+...

 

Ummm...Integra GSR = 2667 from the factory.

It is easy to lose 150lbs on that car for SP. 200lbs might even be a possibility.

I personally don't like the new Celicas because of the Mac strut front suspension. They do very good in GS, but in a modiifed form I haven't been too impressed.


[Modified by Todd00, 3:19 PM 9/18/2002]

 

Whew. It's a good thing those pesky BMWs are using Mac struts.... they should be a piece of cake to beat!

 

RWD = different ballgame than a FWD mac strut car. We've been over this before.

 

Touchy, touchy. I guess you hate Neons, too.

Andy - PRESIDENT of the Anti-"Hi!" campaign

 

If not for daddio, then I don't think a neon would have had DSP last year...

And yeah, I'm not what you call a Neon lover. However, at least Chrysler throws the contingency money at them.

 

I guess I would need to be enlightened. My feeble mind tells me that a car with Mac struts would be better if the springs were stiffer, not worse. Stiffer springs means even less camber change, because there is less body roll.

Regardless, I don't think we have seen a single 7th gen Celica prepped to the limit of the rules with a great driver. When we do, it will trophy at nationals.

Scott

 

That's what I have been saying about the GSR. I think Mike Neary in a fully prepped GSR would place very well.

 

I think people give too much importance to suspension design. Just look how competitive 84-87 Civics/CRXs can be and they have torsion bars in front and a solid axle in back. SUVs have more sophisticated suspensions than that... McPherson-McSchmerson, multi-link this and wishbone dat, bah... Personnaly I'd prefer a car that is 400lbs lighter has 30 less horsepower and has a solid axle over a fancy-schmancy suspended pig... Anyday...


[Modified by jsi, 4:40 PM 9/18/2002]

 

I agree, Mike had it going, but coned it away. Not a happy time I'm sure. He'd have been 5th if it weren't for that cone.

I'm still marveling over the Supra that placed in the trophies. Power isn't that good, weight is marginal at best, front suspension is Mac strut (though many of us agree that that doens't matter), and most importantly, the rear suspension on the 3rd gen Celica/supra wasn't very good.

But, some stiff bushings and that is a bit better, good low end torque, and a LSd will do wonders.

Not to mention you can fit some serious rubber on the car if you want to.

One problem with the 7th gen Celica might be the brakes. I don't think you can fit a 14" wheel over them, let alone a 13" wheel, so you are limited to much larger (and heavier) wheels and tires. That might be enough to kill it.

Scott

 

Dude, just give it up and get a BMW. Then you can drink wine and eat cheese with me.

Mike <-- whose under-prepped DSP E30 325is is 2750# w/o driver and could legally get down to 2550#.

 

Weight will always be the first factor in a car doing well in autox. Hence, that's why the 84-87 Civics do so well. However, in CSP, the 2nd gen civics still pose a challenge to the 1st gen civics even though they weigh less. What makes up for this? The suspension.

As for Mac vs Wishbone, look no further than the latest Type R vs the old Type R in Japan. The old R is a faster car around the track, even though weight is the same and it is down on power and torque.

Two equal cars, the one with the double wishbone suspension will be a better handling car, period.

 

A great driver in a very well prepared underdog car will allways do good. I'm sure that was the case with the Supra, and even the Fiat which can be considered an underdog now. Also, a great driver in an under-prepared favorite car can do well. Just look at David Larose (local hero here) who trophied (9th place) in the 87 325is. He was running NO engine mods whatsoever, Bilsteins sports with some H&Rs, and on 205-50-15 donuts. AND he drove the car 2,000 miles to run at the Nationals for the first time...