I recently had my car on the dyno and it is not makin the power it should. After 7k rpms the power dies off and after literally checking EVERYTHING I'm starting to think the valves are floating at high rpms. Reason I think this is because my springs and retainers are 6yrs old and have around 7k miles on them. My car has sat and not been started for 2 years before. So I'm thinking whatever valves were compressed for those 2 years could of lost their spring. Has anyone else had similar problems with older aftermarket valve springs leading to valve float? Any input is appreciated

Here's a refrence to my other thread https://honda-tech.com/forums/drag-racing-36/power-droping-off-after-7k-why-2783819/

The setup:
-9:1 gsr
-Stock port b16 head, supertech valvetrain
-Skunk2 tuner 2 cams
-Top mount t4 (1.06 divided hotside)
-Billet HTA3586 turbo
-3in exhaust
-precision 600 core
-victor x intake manifold
-precision 1000s
-M&W pro 10
-Crane coil
-255 intank, Bosch 044 inline

Things ive tested:
-Compression is 185 on all 4 cylinders
-Boost leak tested entire intercooler system
-Jumped vtec to make sure its engaging
-Checked bov for leak
-Checked timing its fine
-Cams have no wear, rockers in good shape
-removed and checked intake manifold/ intake ports
-Swaped from my s300 and pluged in neptune to see if that changed anything
-Removed exhaust
-leakdown showed 3%-5% in all cylinders

 

Im in the process of replacing my entire Supertech Valvetrain. I had an issue with the intake valves mushrooming the heads, so I replaced them and got the new Inconel Valves for the exhaust while it was apart.

While I was talking to Supertech, they suggested I run the new type of spring, they old ones arent as stiff as the new style. They have a new "high hp" spring appearently.

I know that doesnt help your floating issue, just thought I give you my info.

Either way, I contacted supertech about the mushrooming and they were GREAT to deal with, gave me good deals on replacement parts and provided awesome customer service!

Get ahold of Martin Tagliavini!

 

Valve springs are definitely a consumable and they need to be replaced. Here are a couple easy things you can do.

1. Buy one new spring of the same part # and check it on a spring tester vs. the ones in your car. Be aware that they might have changed the spring in the last 6 years.

2. When you disassemble your head, take note of how much effort it takes to release the keepers when you compress the spring. Valvetrain that is in control will release with little effort. Out of control valvetrain will tend to have sticky keepers.

3. On our motors with the rollers, it is real easy to identify out of control valvetrain by a star pattern on the valve stem from the roller contact. It may not be as easy for you with a B-series, but inspect the valve stem tips carefully and look for abnormal wear.

4. Like the guy that posted above, sometimes you might not be able to see the damage easily, but it will be hard to remove the valve from the guide.

This is such an overlooked issue on these motors and there is significant power in valve control. Not just keeping them from floating, but keeping them from bouncing excessively on the seat. I just got 2 heads back last week, both with all brand new stuff in them and both had mushroomed valve heads after one dyno session and one trip to the track. They had 2 different brands of valves, but both had the same valve springs. We see it on every head that uses that particular spring. Go figure...

 

Tons of very helpful info in the last two post, I appreciate it guys. Might be a noob question but what is "out of control" valvetrain?

 

the guys at supertech identified the springs as the problem immedietly when I told him about the mushroomed tops




also, I had a slight smoking issue when I was on the dyno last, before the rebuild. During the compression test, all 4 Cyl's were showing proper compression. After identifying some issues within the head, the exhaust valves were slightly bent as well. Which is why the entire valvetrain was replaced.

 

curious here, how many miles do you guys have on your supertech valvetrain that its wear is becoming and issue/potential issue?

 

I had about 35,000 KM's

roughly 21,000 miles, daily driven with 450whp
I figure I made out pretty good concidering the abuse it took during that time!

 

can u please pm me what brand?

 

Same here. Luke, care to share?

 

Screw pming post it up. If you have bad exsperiences with products share it so no one else will.

 

did u guys (im assuming synapse) try adding a few degrees timing back in after 7000. (im sure you did im just checking)


also, whats your dumptube situation look like? if its anywhere near the intake filter that could be a contributing factor. get it out away from the filter at least behind the oil pan under the intermediate shaft

 

Sorry guys I don't plan on stepping on everyone's dick with my opinion. I take a lot of flak over stuff like this and comments I make on Al Gore's Internet. There are 1000 other opinions on here that may be better than mine. Pay attention to those things I listed, and if you experience those things then you need to start looking into something else. Does the keeper stick? What does the stem look like? Calling a brand or even a specific spring good or bad would be a huge generalization, since everyone's setups are different. The spring simply needs to be matched to the application, and in this industry a lot of people rely on a catalog under the title HONDA to specify their spring. Was that safe enough? LOL

Step back and take a look at all the major racing classes. Pro Stock, Pro Stock Bike, Pro Mod, IRL, USAC, etc, etc. You guys are pushing these things like a Pro Mod. Are they putting 39 cent valve springs in those motors?

 

i was just asking brand cause on of my heads in the past had float issues so i wanted to see if it was the same make

 

I have added a ton of timing with no difference

 

Don't post much, but I thought this needs to be quoted. I just went through a k series head that some pretty aggressive cams in it. To keep the story short the springs were wrong in all ways. When you put the these types of cams especially in a street car you need have things right (installed height, pressure, material....). I only recommend PAC, PSI, and Ferrea.

P.S. Springs in a all out NA drag car are definitely a consumable (like said above). The annual budget for valve springs alone for a 1 car NHRA Pro Stock team is 100,000.00 dollars.

 

Considering that a valvespring used to be somewhere in the neighborhood of $500 a piece and they get changed out every few passes or so. I forget what material they are made out of though. It is completely amazing what they can get a 500-515ci motor to do in that class.

The thing is, alot of the Pro Stock teams rent their engines from Reher Morrison and other builders, or they did. They are allowed to change valvesprings and a few other consumables, but not allowed much more than that. If an engine is hurt or goes, they just send it back to the builder and let them deal with it. They said that they are the most expensive cars to buy or set up, but cheaper overall than a top fuel or funny car. The engines alone are sold for somewhere around $200k where a funny car or top fuel engine was less than $80k.

back on topic though...sorry for getting sidetracked.

 

Ti PSI. A lot of the teams have taken their engine programs in house because guys with their own R&D $ were pulling away, much like Warren J did 15 years ago. There are guys that lease engines still, but really they are teaming up 2 car teams for data. Pro Stock is REAL f'ing cool right now with everyone finding the power to gun down Edwards.

 

Once again guys thanks for the helpful comments. I'm going to just rebuilt the head and hope for the best. I've been looking at some prices and think I'm going to go with Ferrea valvetrain and have the head ported while I'm at it.

 

Good idea with the porting. Applied Flow around us and Port Flow in Cali both do GREAT work. My brothers head was done by Port Flow and mine was done by Applied Flow. GL with everything.

 

good idea and please let us know the outcome. Too many people post problems without ever posting the results of the venture. Good choice too on the brand.

Bisi wrote a great article about valve springs in the recent issue of honda tuning.

It pretty much reiterated what I've already researched on the internet over the last 5-6 years.

 

I didnt know the valvesprings were made out of a titanium. I thought that titanium did not like to give and that it wanted to snap instead of bending/compressing. I heard or read a former Pro Stock crew chief talking about the valvetrain in those cars. I thought he said some rare exotic metal was used in the springs. It could be all in my imagination though. I know someone that builds/races NHRA Pro Stock bikes. I have seen the engine before, but they never told me what material the springs were made out of. I want to say they used Kibblewhite for their valvetrain stuff and possibly Web Cam for their cam grinds.


Again, sorry for getting off topic again, but I love talking about Pro Stock stuff. They fascinate me.

 

It is a special metal mix that I don't know much about.

I use the PSI Pro stock bike springs in one of my motors and the Chevy spring in the small one. They aren't any exotic material, just a nice PSI spring. I run them outer spring only. Outer and inner spring were too much pressure. Pro stock bike guys don't change springs that often compared to pro stock.

 

I think the bike guys adjust the valves after every pass and change out the clutches every pass. Not sure exactly what else they do, maybe some plugs? I know they have to keep them consistent so I do not know how much is really changed.