I'm going crazy trying to come up with a feasible subframe design that can both serve as the engine mounting platform, rear suspension mounting point, and roll bar with out adding major weight to the car. A simple ladder frame design can go from the trailing arm mounting area to the rear bumper attachment points quite nicely, but that's only a two dimensional bottom piece. Then I need to go from the bumper mounting , up along the hatch "glass" area and along the roof to right behind the seat for the roll bar portion. The rear suspension is my main concern, since I want to go double A-arm suspension. Arrrgh...it's going to take me forever to figure this mess out: You need to have a narrow frame underneath the engine and tranny so the CV shafts won't hit anything. But with a narrow subframe you can't quite get the right width for the suspension mounting points, so you you have to add a sub-frame on each side the subframe. Plus you have to have mounting points for the engine. And you have to have it all work to where there can be a feasible roll bar assembly.

Anybody have any ideas...my brain is fried right now.... I'll get some sketches up of what I've been thinking about later...

 

i'm not sure if this is justa rant or what....but its kinda getting me turned on.

let's see some sketches...

 

Look at some Ferraris.

My guess is that the idea is feasible since the entire front suspension/drivetrain can be pulled as 1 unit (minus the shock towers).

 

I saw a picture of a crx with a mid engine on H-T not to long ago. can't remember where though.

interesting idea you have, but sounds like $$$$.

 

ok here's a sketch of one idea I have right now (basically just concentrating on geometry now, once I get the geometry about right then I'll get to dimensioning it):










[Modified by Vracer111, 11:57 PM 9/9/2002]

 

Ack! Make them work!!

 

The images aren't working?

Try this link then:
Integra Album...they'll be the last few images.

 

It would work fine, if you don't mind a project of that magnitude. Check the project in my sig, which is even harder. You'd have a big advantage since almost everything is in place.

The funny thing is you could leave another engine in the front... I think it was Car and Driver who did that with a CRX.

 

You mean like this???

http://www.sunspeed.com/pr_els01.html

Elise 2001 by Sun International
Conversion of Elise, Exige, Sport 190, 340R and Elise Mk II (S2); built to customer's specifications with new powertrain based on the 1.8 liter Honda VTEC Type R (B18C) engine and Honda limited slip differential

Estimated total cost including customer supplied new Elise, new 200 hp powertrain and installation $55,000.00

Estimated cost of a new Elise in USA - $30,000.00 - $35,000.00
Cost of conversion including parts, labor and new Honda powertrain $25,000.00
We can also custom build a unique body, designed to customer specifications, on the Elise chassis.


Although I would like this one.





[Modified by Spade, 7:13 AM 9/10/2002]

 

Spade, are you with sunspeed? if so I wouldlike to know more aobut the elise, thanks

 

Isn't there a mid or rear-engined Civic/Integra running in one of the SCCA GT3 or something? I don't think it'd be too terribly difficult if you got someone who knows how to do chassis fabrication really well (like my summer job boss) but I don't foresee it being a cheap project to do the fab work for it.

 

Dude! You're going all out..... That's eventually what I want to do - build my own tubeframe car from scratch.... Im using the integra as practice for now. I was just thinking about what you said on having an engine in the front...and I thought of another interesting twist on that:

Use powerfull but lightweight electric motor on each front hub so all 4 wheels are driven - the front two independantly and the rear via the H23A. I'd just have to power the motors (say with a Honda electric generator up front.... ) and come up with a controlling computer for the two motors...hmmmmmm I think this would be very nice.

I could go in two independent stages with the car:

Stage I - Conversion to midengine and RWD. The design will make allowances for a future Stage II. Work out the tuning of Stage I design and race it for a whole season. Then research implementation of Stage II.

Stage II - Addition of independent front wheel drive by electric motors. Maybe boost the H23A powerplant to compensate for additional weight of the Hybrid system.....

Vracer111, who thinks going hybrid in a Honda racecar sounds familar...hmm, kinda like a Honda DualNote....

 

I forget which magazine I read this article in, but I think possibly SS or SCC did an article on visiting Honda of Japan, and in their tech schools, one of the student's projects was converting a 3rd Gen Integra to rear-engine mounted, rear-wheel drive. They even had a picture too.

 

interesting idea, its been done before though by more than one shop in japan.
I think i would much rather leave the engine in the engine bay and convert to
RWD instead.

 

Look up stuff on Locost and other Lotus 7 clones. Specifically the MK Indy. Many are being built now with independent rear suspensions. You may do away with your idea of keeping the trailing arms. I am considering a mid/rear engined 7 clone with D or B series power. Of course I am lacking a place to build it, materials, skill, and money! Good luck with your project. Keep us informed, please...

 

Yeah, there was a post somewhat recently that included pics(and some specs) of that red CRX(or CR-NS-X) that had an NSX engine mounted in the rear(obviously). Its subframe/rollbar/enginemount design sounds VERY similar to what you are thinking, so if you could just find the site about this car then you could maybe try contacting the owner/builder of it for more insight into your design.

In fact I may even have some pics of that car that could help you, I will look, enjoy


[Modified by ILUVTEC, 8:52 PM 9/10/2002]

 

Sounds like a big projects, but have you thought about a few things, like weight distribution, balance and fuel tank location? I guess you could just make a shelf in the front where the engine sits not and mount a fuel cell on it, but then you'd be blowing hot air from the radiator on it, so make it a closed compartment?
I still don't see why you don't go H22A. You can get complete swaps for less than buying a used H32A and rebuilding it, and you'll have a ton more power on the top end. What about a shield between the driver and engine? Might want to install a fire supression system too, since the engine is in the same area as the driver.

When you start working on things, let me know, I'd like to help out man, sounds like a cool project. BTW, are you an engineer?

 

I like that idea - s2k subframe, and integra sheetmetal on top...

 

nah, no s2k subframe. i would use a b-series motor and adapt the s2k transmission
to it. That way I get plenty of flexibility in the engine, and that nice 6 speed.
Custom subframe for that setup shouldnt be terribly complicated, though power
steering would have to be a MUST.

 

I was thinking about a b series in a MK1 toyota MR2. It's not as ambitious as a mr integra but it would be pretty cool. Mounts wouldn't be too hard, but things like shift linkage and axles would be tricky.

 

The trailing arms will be taken out... that was one of the first things that became obvious once I decided on going mid engined with this project. For a scratch built car I like how the Locost idea goes...been looking at Locost websites for a while now. But I think I would do mine a little different than most...I'd make it a Ro-cost.... Anyways I'm still in the "sketching" stage right now, but might have an H23A, tranny, etc. lined up shortly from a fellow autocrosser.

The concrete design areas are as follow:

- An 8 gallon fuel cell with be positioned in the front right along the stock firewall
- What use to be the front engine bay will be an enclosed bay.
- A manual steering rack will replace the power steering one
- A sealed gel miata replacement battery will be located under the "dash area" (there is no dash now) - around the vehicles centerline
- The Holley engine management computer will be forward of the rear firewall and situated between the two seats
- A rear firewall will be built right behind the seats
- The prelude engine will be midship
- A rear tubular subframe will serve as the engine support member, rear suspension mounting points, and roll bar.
- The radiator will be located behind the engine and transmission and be shifted towards the lighter transmission side
- The rear quarter panel window areas will serve as the intake tract for the engine (right side) and ducting for an engine bay cooling intake (left side)
- The rear lights will be taken out and the resulting holed areas used as ducting outlets for cooling the radiator and engine bay.

Everything else in the design is ancillary thusfar...


[Modified by Vracer111, 5:41 PM 9/10/2002]

 

Well the only reason I want to go H23A is for the simplicity of no VTEC to worry about... If someone wouldn't mind helping me out with integrating VTEC control into the Holley management system then I wouldn't mind going H22A one bit....

Actually, I am not an engineer...but I do work with them all the time and know basic structural design theory and material applications.... If all else fails I'll just refer to my library of design books.... I'll let you know once she's ready to be worked on. But first I need to clean out the garage, get that old B18A out and on an engine stand, finish removing the ABS system, get all that tar out of the inside, sell two sets of wheels and tires and everything else of value that's come off the car (glass, performance parts, moonroof assembly, stock rear lights....[I bet I could make a killing with mint condition G2 rear tail lights on E-bay!]), and decide on whether I really want to go H23A or H22A....


[Modified by Vracer111, 5:44 PM 9/10/2002]

 

Sounds like a good old fashioned "bodging" a la Junkyard Wars.

What about two smaller radiators on either side like a Ferrari/Lambo? Where you going to pull air from for the intake?

 

hehehe...Junkyard wars...whooo hooo, the NERDS team ruled...especially NEO!

I thought about a split radiator design, but there is really no need for it - there is plenty of room in the hatch for the regular radiator to be positioned behind and to the side of the motor. I'm thinking GT40 style clear lexan type side air scoop on the right rear-quarter window to help pull in some air.....