410,000 Odyssey's and Element's are being recalled because the brakes fail because the VSA/ABS modulators leak air into the system.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...xFiRwD9EFSEIG3


Acura/Honda has been aware of the exact same problem with the RL, TL and TSX for 2.5 years and all they've done is issue a TSB for our cars. Look at the date on the TSB.

http://www.in.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/SB/B07-041.PDF

 

I saw that you deleted this and I wondered why, so I moved it here so that we could talk about it.

If you think it is important enough to talk about, then you should go ahead and talk about it.

There is more than one module involved, and it is a different issue than the one for the Odyssey.

Something that we learned the hard way with both of our Accord 6-6 (one Coupe and one Sedan, the Coupe having been traded on my TL 6-6) is that if you're on the track with the 6-6 Coupe or you're fooling around in the snow and rain with the 6-6 Sedan, then you could find yourself dealing with a situation where the VSA, ABS and other modules will conspire to inadvertently introduce a little air into the system.

The brake pedal will feel just like it will feel with any other car that you have on the track over a weekend that might involve six to eight sprint sessions over the weekend. In other words, the brake pedal will feel spongy and it will travel long and give you an uncomfortable feeling.

But the car will stop. VSA and ABS will still work. You will simply have a low and spongy pedal. There's a limit to the amount of air that can get in, which is why it has not been recalled, together with a feeling on the part of Honda and Acura that it's only going to be the hot shoes like me who are going to notice the problem.

In most cases, a hand bleeding (not power bleeding) by someone who knows how the system works is going to fix the problem.

If the driver continues to have the problem or wants to continue to track his car, then they can replace the modules with a newer variety or even perform a major and costly system repair at Honda's expense.

They offered to do this with my 6-6 Coupe after it was on the track showing people how an FF car would outperform Crown Victorias, and why people should consider more FF fleet cars. :-) But it didn't bug me that much because a brake bleed fixed it and to be honest it was hard to tell if it was really air in the system or burned brake fluid that was the worse problem.

The 6-6 Sedan is still on the road and now has 120,000 miles on it...one brake bleed solved the problem and now Bryan knows not to abuse the system the way he was doing it when the problem developed.

Anyway...it's not exactly the same problem across all models and years.

But if you feel it's something we need to talk about, then you can do it.

I found your thread deleted and just didn't think it was necessary to have deleted it. I don't think we are necessarily after causing Honda to spend money unnecessarily and for me it was not a big problem...but I know that I do not represent the majority of drivers.

I also don't think I would refer to it as a "failure" because the brakes still work very well. You won't feel confident doing it, however, if you are an inexperienced driver. I feel pedals like that on the track all the time, and I know the car is going to stop...but maybe most drivers don't know that.

 

George, when I read the article hastily the first time, I missed the last paragraph that Honda 'is still preparing a list of affected vehicles.' I figured since they're aware of the problem in Acura models, other Honda's like the Accord must have the defect too. So best wait and see what they do before creating a stir.

There's only one modulator that controls pressure in system I'm aware of. Which other ones are you talking about?

This is my mom's car so it's driven pretty gently. ABS and VSA get plenty use in snow though, and it's easy to notice the pedal becoming softer with ABS/VSA application. It's progressively gotten worse. I've been driving this car regularly these days since the Prelude is engine-less, and it's just annoying. One shouldn't have to deal with problem like this on the street. If an irregular bleed takes care of it, that's easy enough, let's see.

However, I know of at least one 06 TL that had a very major accident because of this, though I'm not sure he explained correctly the modulator's relation to it causing the MC to fail repeatedly. Some others with 3g TL's report that the spongy pedal comes back after a bleed, and in some cases the dealer just keeps rebleeding while under warranty while refusing the replace the modulator.

Generally speaking, the quality of Honda's has dropped precariously in the last 4-5 years. With less than 45k miles on this TL (2005), these are all that have had to be replaced, and they're all very common problems in the 3g TL: No one can blame this stuff on American manufacturing; other than the rattles, I'm guessing these are components poorly engineered by Japanese engineers. How much development is done on American models like the TL in Torrance, CA? Thank god for extended warranty.

-LCA thrust bushings
-Side and rear engine mounts
-Steering rack is developing a leak at both ends
-Rack needs a guide adjustment due to excess play
-Torque converter on it's way out
-5 bent OEM wheels (yes, five)
-Interior is rattles galore, felt strips become your best friend.

Please move this back to the TL forum. You seem to have more clarity and experience in dealing with the spongy pedal, and I'm sure it'd be of help to others too.

 

Okay. I'll move it back and leave it visible, but I think you're going to have to prepare for the discussion.

Gird your loins, so to speak. :-)

 

-LCA thrust bushings- I heard over that the ACL site that the suspension geomerty causes this and they are not sure what the fix is. 03+ and older cars do not seem to have the problem dispite similar setup.......

-Side and rear engine mounts- known issue with any fwd car with high hp/tq numbers. my mounts are still ok at 90K but I rarely go above 3K on the tach most of the time is it's 2K or less.

-Steering rack is developing a leak at both ends- Acura should be fixing that one

-Rack needs a guide adjustment due to excess play - I have a 02 CLS with the same problem (excessive play in the steering wheel)

-Torque converter on it's way out- get that fixed asap cause when that trans decides to quit, you're screwed.

-5 bent OEM wheels (yes, five) - Result of low profile tires man. I got 2 bent rims on my cl-s with 17" and it does not affect the way the car drives so I said fudge it.

-Interior is rattles galore, felt strips become your best friend.- same here i have put felt everyewhere there is plastic on plastic movement and now the problems are gone.

as for the abs module, buying a new seal kit and redoing the seals on the system resolves that issue. Known problem with ABS unit since honda started using it.

 

-People with as little as 20k miles experience broken engine mounts. Usually the front goes first, then the side. Oddly, the front is ok in ours. I can't see the rear mount, but with the hood open, I can see there's too much play in the back.

They also didn't properly orient/install the engine/trans and mounts at the factory. That's the reason pretty much all the 04-06 TL's with auto trans get that driveline shock when you shift into reverse. There's a TSB that says to loosen all the mount bolts and shift the trans through reverse and drive so that the engine can position itself correctly. This misalignment might be a contributing factor to why these mounts fail so quickly.

-Steering rack won't be covered under extended warranty until it really starts leaking. It's just starting too seep past the boot a bit now.

-Needing guide adjustment at 45k miles is ridiculous.

-Torque converter and trans: just waiting for it to fail completely, then warranty should take care of it.

-First time around three wheels were bent. Now, front two again. It's not terrible this time, so I just moved them to the back. You can pick up good condition used oem wheels from car-part.com for $100 shipped, but it adds up when they keep bending, plus mounting/balancing cost.

-ABS/VSA modulator- what seal kit?
http://www.acuraoemparts.com/delray/...All&vinsrch=no

One last point is that even with the open diff the in a/t TL's, torque steer is just silly at even 45-50 mph when you really get on it. New mounts should help, but 270hp and fwd idn't work out too well in this car. AWD came just in time for the current gen. This is the highest hp fwd car I've ever driven. It leaves me wondering how all the 'built' B/H/K cars making big power/tq manage around tracks with anything short of a clutch-type lsd.

 

Honda really needs to see the futility in insisting on staying FWD when making all this power...



I can say on the LCA bushings (these are called COMPLIANCE bushings btw) is that my Honda designer buddy told me that there is not a ton that can be done on this part. It is designed the way it is to help prevent torque steer and provide a movable element to the suspension that will add compliance and absorbsion to the system without introducing torque steer.

And it works so great, right? Lol.

Best fix, according to my buddy, is to rubber-fill the mounts.

 

you gotta do some searching but I think ABS modulator fix should get you the result in the accord forum.

 

That's for the old gen Accord's. Who's to say the modulators in current cars use the same size o-rings.