While high compression, revving, economic small engines has represented what honda has been about...

continuing the heritage without making any major leaps in displacement or engine specifications is disappointing, atleast to me. Granted they have a upcoming NSX in design phase, but I am speaking relatively for the US sport compact market. Acura&Honda alike.

I do not claim to know as much as any b-series motor guru on this board, but its apparent that honda really is sticking to the small displacement motors.

What I would enjoy seeing is more research done for 6/8 cyln motors, or with motors with larger displacement than 2 liters.

As it currently stands I personally believe honda is losing its edge, as I'm sure many of you who read this may agree.

The new line up of usdm honda's is just not very innovative compared to what other companies are doing in regards to sport compact competition. For instance subaru, nissan and mitsubishi all seem to have come up with new platform to compete with much of honda's lineup.

One thing that does stand in question is, honda's reliability has always been there. Now what about these new cars coming out. reliability may not be there. So this may be honda's only real advantage in the foreseeable future.

Share your opinions on this topic, as although I really love my honda, I dont believe I see myself buying a honda next time around.


[Modified by Soup ****, 5:55 AM 9/7/2002]

 

I can't agree more ! , I have been a die hard Honda fan for years. I work on them every day and see them inside and out.
I must say the new stuff Honda is building looks like GM had alot to do with it . The fit and finish for one does not have the quiltiy of the 88 Civic, I really think old man Honda would be pissed with the new Sh*t.
Yes every one is passing Honda by, after Honda pretty much started the tuner craze.
The Neon with be turbo charged next year, The SVT Focus, The new Protege , the Mp3 will be turbo charged. I'm sure as more people learn the new K motors more power will be found. I still believe the quility is not on par with the '00 and older.
I know the B series can't live forever , but I think the The Integra Type R and the 99 Civic Si are the last Hondas worth buying !
I have owned many Hondas but I will never buy any of the new Sh*t , I will be looking at other companys.
Enjoy your Honda before it goes back to being a cheap econamy car.

 

I disagree. Even though, there current lineup is not very "sporty" compare to the last gen, Honda is making huge progress in engine research. As y'all know that the next breakthrough in engine design will be gas-electric hybrid or fuel cell stand alone. Honda has made quite a bit of advance in the field in the past 3-5 years and I won't be surprised if they can come up with something very innovative while being "sporty" in the near future (~5 years). And, even if it sounds like it's got nothing to do with combustion engine design, the feedbacks from hybrid will bring about even higher capacity combustion engine design (more efficient, clean burning + power) 'Cuz, let's face it... fossil fuel won't be getting any cheaper and performance market will ultimately go in the direction of hybrid or fuel cell technology.

All in all, give 'em another a chance to be on top by next generation cycle. I will always come to Honda to expect high caliber products.

p.s. IMHO, if you want a sports car, honda never really made any... other than NSX.

 

I disagree too. Honda is concentrating their efforts on the vehicles that MAKE THEM LOTS OF MONEY. The Honda Accord is the number one import sedan in North America for 10 years running. They just did a major revamp of its looks and will maintain their stranglehold on this part of the market due to high customer loyalty, high build quality and excellent reputation.




They will likely also concentrate their efforts on the MDX/Odyssey/Pilot. The MDX has sold really well as well as the Odyssey (I think it's the number one selling van).

Guess what cars Honda manufactures on North American soil --> Accord, MDX/Odyssey.

You can't make good margins on cheap economy cars - they help you achieve your C.A.F.E. quotas as a manufacturer and get entry-level consumers interested in your product. Most of their engines are now also ULEV - how many other car manufacturers have ultra low emissions vehicles too???

Honda is also pushing forward with engine development. Hybrid technology is well under way as is further development of the i-VTEC platform.

 

I am dissapointed with where Honda is heading...but Honda is going where they feel they can make money and be innovative.

My next car will most likely not be a Honda.

 

You can look at it from a few different angles. I am inclined to agree with Soup ****. Honda has also been VERY disappointing in racing: F1, PPG Cart. Jacques Villeneuve makes $20 million a year but has no car to work with. Toyota has made very impressive advances in these series..

 

Ok not much sense being made here...Leaps in displacement?? As if that was some sort of achievement?...If you want discplacement, buy domestic. The whole point of buying a sporty honda is for the SMALL displacement, high revving, light weight car.

The real disappointment is that their newer cars, offered in N/A, dont match the performance of the previous generation. (Type-s vs. Type-R and New Si vs 99-00 Si) .

While other companies are offereing their best sport compacts yet (SVT, MP3, SPEC V), Honda's newest lines are clearly not their best.

 

I say that we should just give them time. I agree that the new cars coming out are not driven towards performance , but i think that they are just putting performance on the back burner. I think that withen the next few years they will be on top once again. I say we just keep kicking *** with our cars and holding down the fort until they come back.


[Modified by ITR-862, 9:42 AM 9/7/2002]

 

I think Honda are looking to the future.

They have invested an enormous amount on fuel economy and hybrid technologies. Look at the Dual Note for instance.

While most performance enthusiasts don't give a damn about how much power you can extract from a small engine, how economic the fuel consumption is and how good it is to the environment... Honda continues to promote and focus on these things in their performance cars.

At first glance it seems bad.. but then again.. maybe it's a wise investment for the future?

Cars are forced to becoming more fuel efficient and environmentally friendly. The new rules and regulations discussed in earth summits have shaped the motor vehicle into what it is today.. and what it will become. Dosn't California have the worlds most strict emissions standards or something?

In the future, cars will probably be required to run on smaller engines, and better economy.. and which car manufacturer had taken the time and money to invest in this issue...? Honda

Though what does seem suspicious, is that they seem to avoid doing V6's and V8's alot because they might have doubts whether or not they could build these sorts of engines that would stand out in the car market, as much as their 4 cylinder engines.

It's just my opinion

 

I'm disappointed with their current racing develpments but I know they are working hard and will improve.

As for production cars, Honda/Acura offers one of the most comprehensive and varied line-ups from ultra fuel-efficient hybrids and electrics to supercars such as the NSX. I really respect their innovation and forward thinking with respect to low-emission and environmentally friendly vehicles. So basically, I don't think they are faultering in any way.

 

I dont know anything about civics. But the New Type-S is faster than the gsr it replaces. The new Type-R seems to be faster than the old type-r it replaces.

 

I think relability and low maintence is hondas biggest selling point.
As long as they keep that, I dont see a problem.

As far as engine design. Look at the Z06 that everyone masterbates over. I think that design is around 80+ years old.

 

The thing about Honda automobiles that appeal to me is:

compact, light weight, fuel efficient, power (given its engine size) and reliability.

Out of the above, the current models of honda's are losing compactness (cars are getting physically bigger) and light weight (with bigger size, the car gains weight, duh!). And engine sizes are getting larger (2.0 vs 1.8, 1.7 vs 1.6). It looks to me like Honda is concentrating all of their efforts on the North American crowd but only on a mainstream level and still refusing to provide us with their sporty compacts (CTR, ITR, ATR).

I guess most JDM car makers still don't believe that North America is willing to spend $25K USD ($38K CDN) for a high powered 4 cylinder. It if they were paying any attention they would have noticed the mark up on ITR's at the dealerships, the line-up to purchase a new ITR and the resale value of the ITR.

I hope Honda does the right thing and brings over the CTR. I also hope the next generation of R's come out of a North American plant, perhaps then, they will be a little more affordable.

Tommy who likes the new ITR, but if they are gonna water it down, he'd prefer to have the CTR.

 

I think it snowballs too. Bigger engine weighs more. So you need bigger brakes. You have to have bigger wheels to fit the bigger brakes. And bigger swaybars, heaver springs, etc etc... Next thing you know, the 2.2 liter is getting smoked by the 1.8 because its too heavy.

Look at the mustang. It weight 3,800 lbs! Our cars weight 2,600 lbs... Thats a big difference at the track.

 

I disagree! I do think Honda North America is completely missing the boat, but in Japan the new Integra Type R is very nice. Much stiffer body, better engine, brakes, ect. Check out the Best Motoring video about the new ITR.


[Modified by 6ghatch, 2:45 PM 9/7/2002]

 

For the mainstream consumer, I disagree that Honda is losing it's competitive edge. Virtually every model is the best in it's class. The old Accord bested the new Altima and Camry. The MDX won the comparision tests it was in when it came out. The CRV ousted the Escape/Tribute in Car and Driver's recent 10 best. Every magazine proclaimed the Odessey the best minivan when it came out. Many have said the same about the Pilot as well. The S2000 is unique in it's own right. Of course not everybody will agree with the results of the comparison tests, but it's most objective way to look at these cars.

My mom just got one of the new CRVs, and when I got a chance to drive it, I was impressed by it's fit and finish, refinement and and even power. It was by no means fast, but it never really felt like it was straining to accelerate.

For the enthusiast, I would have to say Honda has been very disappointing especially in America. Most of the members of this board don't like the RSX-S or SI, and that says enough about Honda's progress in this department. The performance simply isn't there. The new Accord will be nearly as fast in a straight line, and the stick version will most likely be faster than either of these two. I think Honda really is hitting the limit to how much power can be produced by a small high revving 4 cylinder. They need turbo.

Honda really needs something out to compete with the Lancer and Impreza.

However, if you look at sport compacts coming out from other companies, they aren't really too much of threat. The mazda manages 170hp with a turbo? So what, they are on par powerwise with the GSR that came out in 94? The Neon... well is a Neon. And the new SER doesn't match the RSX power wise.

 

I don't think Honda is doing anything wrong with respect to the mainstream market. As has already been pointed out, the CRV, Odyssey, and Accord are really excellent automobiles. I'm especially impressed with the new Accord, particularly the V6 6-speed coupe coming out.

What I don't like is how Honda continues to ignore the under-30 performance minded market. The RSX-S is nice, and a great replacement for the GSR. Still, I think it's more of an "Acura" than a Honda if you know what I mean. Plus the thing is so darn big. But that's beside the point...

With Mazda, Nissan, Ford, and Toyota (I'm not including Mitsubishi because the new Eclipse = IMHO) releasing or having released a nice handful of high performance, stylish, and affordable sport compacts...Honda's potential lifetime customers are drifting away. If you don't grow up loving Hondas because they're cheap, fun, and can be fast, you won't want to keep buying them. That's what I think anyway.

And BTW, just to point out something about the Mazdaspeed Protege:

Even though it's only putting out 170hp stock, it's still turbocharged. Everyone knows the potential that factory turbocharged cars have. Plus it handles great, looks good, and is going to be around $20,000.

Mazda, and many other manufacturers, knows what young people want. Honda doesn't.

 

just to clarify...

the RSX-S is not a worthy replacement for the GS-R. This is not meant to be negative...rather they are two totally different vehicles.

 

Why? are you talking 1/4 times? weight? The new chassis is a whole lot stiffer (something like 35% overall and 116% on suspension points stiffer??). The new RSX was designed as the Integra Type R first then "detuned" to the Type S version. Where as the old ITR's were upgraded from the base versions. I see a lot of potential with the new chassis, but it will take time for the tuners to get it right. Personally I would not buy the Type S due to the "luxury" features that I don't need.


[Modified by 6ghatch, 4:32 PM 9/7/2002]

 

honda is actually doing much better than toyota in formula one. honda doesnt make their chassis, they only make the engine. plus, jacques villenueve isn't as good as a driver as he used to be. michael schumacher is the man.

 

You missed a few.

Civic sedan
Civic coupe
Civic GX (NGV)
Element
Pilot
TL and TL Type S
CL and CL Type S
EL (Canada-only model)

 

mazda didnt change out the internals when they added the turbo.

 

i'm kinda on the fence here on this subject and i think everyone makes very good points, but you gotta remember, honda has set the bar for all those other automobile manufacturer's and i'm sure in the future they will set the bar again.

 

My disappointment stems not from their new engines, but from their progression to larger, heavier cars with much higher cowls.

The <U>very first</U> thing that attracted me to Hondas was the low, low cowl height of the 1986 Accord. Car and Driver magazine recently called it "cowl height perfection" and I agree 100%. That low cowl and hoodline combined with a large greenhouse, lithe chassis and quick-responding controls gave a supreme feeling of being in command of the car, and are, to me, the essential factors that define a Honda.

But the trend over the course of new model introductions has been to raise the cowl, until now with the '03 Accord and RSX we have cowls that are every bit as high as the other marques'. We have Hondas that don't feel at all like Hondas (to me). And who would have guessed that Honda would take a huge step backward by introducing an Integra replacement with MacPhereson Struts? That's absolutely shameful.

I would not, under any circumstances, buy a new Honda today. They no longer build cars like the ones that made them unique years ago. Today they might as well be Toyota. In fact, I sincerely hope that they go out of business.

 

I personally was dissapointed when I was examining the engine specs on the K20R vs. the B18CR. Power output in Japan wasn't significantly different although there was a .2L jump in displacement. I thought that Honda could have pulled more out of the larger engine, and they didn't. Overall, I think that in Japan they still have the sport compact market in mind, but in America they are obviously not overly concerned with it as they have continued to hold back both the CTR and the ITR.

The single factor which has made Honda engines famous over the last couple of years is their specific output. (Horsepower per liter) When the ITR was first released in the US every major car magazine marveled at its HP output through such a small displacement. Since there, the ITR and now the S2K have been seen as the benchmarks for engine efficiency. They were what everything was compared to. When the new M3 came out, one of the first things that was noted about its new engine was that it had a higher specific output than both the ITR and the S2K. Honda currently isn't showing the same innovation with their new engines that earned them the acclaim of the US antuomotive journalists and industry, that is unfortunate. I think that they need to maintain the standard of excellence which put them in the spotlight and caused the rest of the automotive world to play catch up. They caught up now and once again Honda is just another one of the masses...they need to differentiate themselves from the masses once again.

Honda