ok so ive been trying to decide whether or not to do a gsr swap in my teg,
but the numbers just arent adding up.
according to multiple 0-60 and 1/4 mile times, the integra ls is only about .4 sec slower than the gsr on the 0-60 and 1/4 mile.
adding to that, some people say the gsr has "no torque" and that the ls is better in that factor, yet the gsr has ONE LESS torque (121 ft lbs) than the ls.
and im also hearing that a cammed ls matches up pretty well next to a gsr.

i guess my questions are:

1) are those ^^^^^^ true?

2) the swap will cost me about $1000, anyone do the swap and regretted putting that much on it? did you actually notice an increase in performance or did you just feel better that you had a better engine?

3) im trying to save to buy a friends 05 s2k in a year and im debating whether to put the $1000 towards that or to potentially do a gsr swap.



thanks alot for the output.

 

It depends on what you're looking to do with the car. A GS-R motor is more of a performance motor then an LS motor. Both motors being very similier, they are very different as well. The LS's TQ is closer to it's total amount of HP then the GS-R is, hence why some say it's better for TQ. The GS-R doesn't have "any torque" compared to the amount of HP, the LS "is torquey" compared to it's amount of HP.

Specs on the 2000 Integra GS-R and LS:

GS-R: 170 HP/7,600RPM, 128 TQ/6200RPM
LS: 140 HP /6,300 rpm, 124 TQ/5200

If whatever swap you decide to go with is only going to cost you $1000, then go with the GS-R swap, you can't go wrong with it.

 

1000 bucks for the swap is worth it imo. B18C1 is a higher revving motor with 30 more hp than the LS motor, so once it gets wound up.. it puts out more torque than the LS...so people that say LS's have more torque, are usually LS owners with GSR envy trying to feel better about their inferior motor. lol.

 

B18C1 is clearly a better motor IMO, unless you are following one of a couple specific builds. If you want an FI build the lower compression and slightly higher displacement of the B18B makes it a good choice. LS-VTEC builds are also very strong although they have their share of problems and are best for experienced builders/tuners.

Regarding the torque of the B18B, there may be fewer ft-lbs overall, but look where the torque peak is: 5200 vs 6200 on the B18C1. The torque of the B18B comes earlier and more quickly, making it actually feel more powerful than the B18C1, at least by my butt dyno. However, the B18C1 almost always impresses me with how long it can pull before you have to shift. It gets on the cam around 3500 and just goes and goes and goes.

Stock for stock the B18C1 is definitely a better engine, but $1000 would get you a long way towards an FI system on an LS...

 

Only $1000 for the swap? I bought my B18C1 for $900 and it is pretty mint, but I also needed a dizzy, throttle cable, two new OEM mounts and some other lil parts in the process and went ahead and did a new radiator so I'm looking at about $1900 right now. Radiator I figured would be good over the stock one.

 

ls with bolt ons, stage one clutch and itr flywheel and a b16 trans is a nice set up that you might consider.

 

there is a lot of things you can do to increase your horsepower in an N/A LS build. In fact there is an entire thread dedicated to this in the All Motor forums section of H-T
https://honda-tech.com/forums/showth...=NON-VTEC+B18B there is a ton of information within this thread so read-up on it and you will take away some knowledge that you are looking for.

Also, i came across this thread a while back which shows an N/A B18B motor pushing out 205whp which is very comprable to a B18C1 motor with I/H/E and a chip tune.
https://honda-tech.com/forums/all-motor-naturally-aspirated-44/205-whp-ls-graph-inside-pump-gas-93-oct-2176287/

And regarding the "money-smart" aspect of building an B18B motor, it is very fiscally relaxed when compared to building a B18C1 motor. Mostly due to the popularity of the B18C1 motor, companies will increase the dollar amount on the part. Whereas with the B18B motor, it is slightly less popular (due to its lacking vtec and stock horsepower) and therefore some parts will be slightly cheaper. Plus if you were to ever need to replace an engine head or block they are much cheaper than any vtec engine. Now, these comments are from my research and of course there are exceptions to this rule, but generally i would hold the aftermarket parts to this standard.

If i had to give you one piece of small advice with a build for a b18b1 motor, go with a B18B or P8R head and get it ported to increase its flow. Use P30 (B16A2) pistons, because these pistons can fit on the stock LS rods with no machining and also they will fit in the B18B head without any milling using the stock head gasket and produce somewhere around an 11:1 compression ratio.

Also having a non-vtec motor makes reliability goes through the roof and from my reading here on H-T. You dont have any of the oil burning issues or crossover dilemmas a vtec motor could have.

 

^^^thank you!! good info bookmarked those links.

 

Edit: NM, read the head wrong. I thought it was a B18C head. Disregard this post.

 

wtf? this can't be serious...

 

1)yes ls does have more torque than gsr but gsr has much more hp and one major thing V-TEC!! lol. not sure about the cams though or you can always do a ls-vtec
2)if you were to do the swap a stock gsr will give you better result than a stock ls
3)s2k are pretty badass cars. but depends on the price he is selling it. cause s2k runs for around 18k or maybe more with that money you can do so much more with you b series motor. just think of the possibility lol just thought i give my opinion.

 

yeah sorry about that, i clicked it twice cause my internet was being slow as *****.

but she is selling it for about 12k to me since were friends, and it will have about 50k on it so im def going to buy iy, just looking for a funner car until the wait. if the cams make it THAT much better, ill totally do it.

BTW, on crower cams it says how much rpm each aftermarket cam can handle... does buying an aftermarket cam increase your redline a little?

 

does anyone agree with this?
it sounds legit to me.

remember guys im not lookin to build my teg persay... i just want to enjoy it a little more for a year and a half and be able to stomp on at least SOME things lol

btw on crower.com their cams say that they can take x amount of rpm...
does putting on an aftermarket increase your redline a little?

 

Like basically every air-flow related mod, cams will change the profile of your powerband. The cam is very important in setting where your peak torque is and what the shape of the torque curve is. Any one cam is only optimal at one engine speed. Less aggressive cams have max performance at low engine speeds. More aggressive cams offer max performance at higher engine speeds, but very poor performance at low engine speeds.

The point of VTEC is that it allows an engine to effectively run two sets of cams -- a low rev cam and a high rev one. At VTEC crossover the engine switches off the low rev cam and onto the high rev cam. That effectively gives GS-R's two torque peaks (smoothed out into a nice flat plateu with tuning and a two stage intake).

The LS motor with those aggressive cams was functionally like a GS-R with those cams, but without the low rev, 'non-VTEC' cam to improve performance at the low end. A GS-R would've had more torque from 3-6k rpm than that engine did. That said, the tuner did so well with that engine that it almost looks like a VTEC torque curve. It's a seriously nice tune.

The reason it revs so high is to take advantage of those high lift/duration cams that give max performance at high engine speeds. The reason it is *able* to rev so high is because of the valvetrain and bottom end work that the builder did. You could turn off the rev limiter on your LS but the results wouldn't be pretty. Portions of the engine, particularly the valvetrain, need to be replaced with strengthened parts to function properly at those rev speeds and to remain reliable.

Back to your other question, I don't know if there's any way you could spend $1000 on your B18B and have it be as fast as a GS-R engine in any way that could be considered remotely reliable. For example, I/H/E + flywheel would cost $1000+ all things considered, and you'd still be way slower than a GS-R. So from that perspective a GS-R swap makes sense. But if you aren't planning on keeping the car much longer, you might as well save your $$$ IMO.

 

LS has more torque because of the longer stroke. Which is why doing an un-built LS or B20 VTEC is a terrible idea. Honda shortened the stroke for a reason, but in return it gained a good deal of performance.

Something about revving to 8K RPM's and hearing that VTEC crossover just does it for me. I've raced my friends in their LS integras several times and the torque is really not a noticeable difference. The GSR just doesn't actually pull on the LS until the top of second/shift into third, but after that it goes.

Worth it? Yes. Just a better engine

 

Are you serious....??? of course you can beat a stock GSR. With bolt ons, a j1 or a y1 trans stage one clutch and a good flywheel. Now you are saying it will cost more than $1000 but I think you are making calculations as if he would buy everything new.

for experience

 

btw my mods i already have are: cold air intake, exhaust, headers, short shifter, c/f hood, drilled/slotted rotors, and lowered

 

whats a j1 and y1 tranny?
like i said i already have all mods listed except tranny clutch and flywheel

 

Thats where you might get better acceleration than your bolt ons. y1 and j1 trans are b16 trannies. do some research. Also I assume you dont have the mechanical skills to do a b18c swap wich the guy above said it might run you the same amount of $$$. Just imagine the cost of the engine plus labor....and you might also run into a few things while doing the swap. In your place I would go with the setup I gave you and you will be having a decent amount of power and acceleration enough to beat a stock b18c.

 

k this might be a stupid question but what is the difference between a b18b1 head and a b18b head? nothing right?

and how much does it cost to port your head? can you get it done at a machine shop?

 

The b18b1 is the head off of the non vtec usdm 94-01 integra. The b18b is the head off of the, as much as i hate to so this word "JDM" non vtec 93-94 integra. As far as i know there the same.

 

alright thats the answer i was expecting.

ok so the setup im looking at right now is the p30 pistons, a crower cam, and a flywheel. i cant afford the tranny as of right now. hooray for xmas. i heard that you can actually go too little for a flywheel... whats a good weight?

 

Go with a GSR swap I don't think turqe matter if ur a racers its not like ur pulling a traller so go with the gsr there better then the ls.aha I got me a b16a jdm I pull on some gsr motor.tourqe don't matter to me when am the drag race lol
Good luck man on ur swap

 

I just meant with boltons. I didn't think you could do boltons + tranny + flywheel for less than a grand. Maybe you could, but you'd have to go used/Ebay and IMO Ebay boltons might not be well engineered enough to get the power you'd need to take 0.5-0.7 sec of your 1/4, especially if you're stuck shifting before 7k, but I admit I could be wrong because I have zero experience w/ B18B other than test drives, and my buddy who has one doesn't race or mod.

To the OP, be wary of getting an an aggressive cam on that engine. The problem with aggressive cams is that they have poor idle characteristics and are bad at low speeds. As I said before VTEC makes up for that by providing a milder cam at low engine speeds, but you don't get that helping you out on a non-VTEC engine. Also note that substantial engine work is needed to get the engine to handle the revs necessary to take advantage of the higher powerband provided by aggressive cams.

Here's a diagram I made showing the effect of cam on torque. Keep in mind that torque curves can be augmented in other ways, but the cam is going to have a very strong effect on the shape of the torque curve. The diagrams show the diff. between B18B and B18C1 both stock and modded with aggressive cams. Note that the primary lobes on the B18C1 help to provide torque where it would be absent on the secondary lobes. Also note that the rev limit has to be moved to optimize the aggressive cams. Just putting in the cams doesn't increase redline. To do that you just need to chip the engine, but the engine will pop quickly if measures aren't taken to ensure that it can handle the stresses of high rpm operation, so moving the rev limit is non-trivial. The area under the curve indicates acceleration throughout the powerband.



Note also that for the B18B, if you don't move the powerband with the aggressive cams, you aren't even getting onto the cam yet before you have to shift, but you've lost a lot of power throughout the powerband vs. the stock cams. The benefit of the aftermarket cams is that they move the powerband up, adding hp, but only if you can rev up enough to get that hp.

 

Jesus Christ dude, $1000? Get the swap, get a 4.785 final drive in that GSR tranny and go nuts.

I've driven my own LS with GSR tranny for quite a few years, and I've had quite a few oppourtunitiess to drive a GSR and type S RSX. They're faster than those numbers will tell you, trust me. But still, they don't feel as fast as my lowly b18b1. All they need is some tranny work and I'm sure they'd feel quick as hell, even before hitting their much needed vtec crossover.