I blew a timing belt on my perfectly running 1990 Honda Civic Hatchback.

I was told by two mechanics that when this happened, the valves on a Honda were usually tweaked and a valve job was in order.

These same two mechanics told me that the compression checked out at 200 and that indicated the valves were okay...which was supposed to be a miracle.

The car didn't run right and had to be taken back to the guy who replaced the timing belt twice to get it timed properly.

Since then, I have lost 5 MPG in gas mileage and the engine light comes on when I reach 50 mph.

I took the car to another mechanic who said it needed a valve job because when the timing belt went out (I felt something give, started losing compression and the car smelled like burning oil. I shut it off immediately and had it towed to mechanic #1), the valves got tweaked. He said the car is running too rich and I can't find a reason for it other than the valves. He said he would put on a catlytic converter first, but figured it would still need a valve job. Cost: $2300. He recommended getting another car.

Both mechanics told me that Hondas are notorious for having the valves bend when the timing belt goes out.

The person who sold me the car is a mechanic (mechanic #3), and not a particularly good one. I took the car to him because my friend and I had asked him about the timing belt before I bought the car and he assured us it had been replaced. When it blew, mechanic #1 said the date on the belt was 1997. The guy who sold me the car insists the guy who put on the timing belt put it on wrong, and that was causing all the problems. I don't know whether to trust him or not since he lied to me about the timing belt.

The bottom line is the car won't pass California smog right now. I have until September 26 to get it smogged and registered or get it off the road. I don't think I would consider putting $2300 into the car. I can get $1000 for the car from the State to retire it since it is a polluter. I have no idea what to do. I have really enjoyed my little hatchback, but have no intention of throwing a lot of money at it at this stage of the game.

As I'm sure you can guess by now, I am a woman who has probably given you way too much information here, but I am not sure what is important for you to know and what isn't.

Is it true that when the timing belts blow on on Hondas, it usually bends the valves? Does any of what I have been told by mechanics #1, #2, & #3 make any sense to you?

Thanks for taking the time to read this!

 

Two key pieces of information are needed for you to make the right decision about keeping or selling the car:

1) Currently, is the mechanical timing perfect or off? This refers to whether the timing belt is installed correctly so that the camshaft and crankshaft are perfectly synchronized at TDC1.

2) If the answer to (1) is that the mechanical timing is currently perfect, then what are the cylinder compressions?

 

Along with what ronJ stated above, I would also recommend getting everything written on paper, provided you have documentation from these "mechanics" and be prepared to file a lawsuit. I think, from what you've written, you've been bamboozled because you are a woman, and most unruly folk mechanics find women to be pushovers when it comes to automotive know-how.

Good luck

 

So the CEL is on, meaning the computer is throwing a code, and this code may be why your car is failing smog. What code is it? What it is will likely determine the next step to take.

I have not heard of a date being printed on Honda timing belts. Believe me, people who buy used cars around here and on other Honda fora are always asking if there is a way to determine the timing belt age. There simply is not.

From reading many reports in the last ten years on the internet on fora like this one, I would say that the valves are bent less than half the time when a timing belt fails on a Honda.

 

Yes but when a timing belt snaps, it is generally assumed that the valves are bent, and possible scored piston heads. there are lots of luck stories, but generally this is what happens.

The valves open and close because of the camshaft thats spun by the timing belt. The timing belt keeps the cams turning with the crankshaft so they can open/close the valves. If the belt snaps, the cams stop moving, leaving the valves sitting and if the pistons are still moving they can hit them and ruin your day.

You may be in luck though. You may be able to find a whole new motor for a couple hundred bucks, and have someone put it in for you. This would be much more reasonable than rebuilding the head. I've never heard of any honda guy spending 2300 on a stock head having it fixed, they just get new heads/motors/etc. Good luck, and try a honda/import specific shop to look at it.

 

Not by experienced Honda owners. I am well aware that almost all Honda engines are so-called interference engines. This does not undo the reality that one can google and find numerous reports of no damage occurring. My observation is that damage is no more likely than no damage.

The OP should get the code read first.

 

The entire story about the OP's Civic centers around an improperly installed timing belt and the possibility of engine damage resulting from a timing belt that skips some teeth. In my opinion, the CEL code is entirely secondary to determining whether the mechanical timing is still off and whether the engine is damaged.

 

I can't tell if it was definitely improperly installed. Getting the code takes two minutes at most on this generation of Honda. It may shed some light very quickly. It may not, but given how little time it takes to retrieve, it makes sense to me to get it.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge proponent of pulling CEL codes (note my avatar). And it certainly won't hurt to pull the CEL code, but would you really immediately act on any CEL code information considering the real possibilities that the mechanical timing is off and the engine is damaged? The latter possibilities are not conjured up out of nowhere by me but solidly based on information described at length by the OP in her first post. Hence, in my opinion, the CEL is currently no more than a distraction until the mechanical timing is checked and cylinder compression tests are done.

 

Someone here help this lady out! Tell us what area of the country you reside in an I'm sure there are a ton of people here that can help you out. $2300 is bullshit for that kind of work on a single cam. I hate it when shops take advantage of women this way.

We can put together a 200 whp set up for that much money ;-P
This is something that can be repaired for a few hundred bucks, please dont let another good civic go to waste.

Edit: These jack off mechanics should have done a leak down test to determine if the valves are bent. This test will rule out which cylinder, if not all, have bent valves by pressurizing the cylinder when the piston is at TDC, if air is escaping through manifold...bent intake valves, out through the exhaust...bent exhaust valves, through the pcv system ( depending on how much pressure it is losing)...burned pistons rings.

You can find good heads around here for dirt cheap...this is backyard repair stuff. Ask for help and I'm sure we can pull something together for you as a honda community. Eff crooks!

 

Whether I would act on the code depends on what it was and how related I felt it may be to the possibility that the timing is still off or the valves are damaged. I am thinking what if it's an O2 sensor code, or a dizzy sensor code? I do not have enough information to justify ignoring the code right now, especially given how easy it is to retrieve.

Just my opinion, but the information in the first post is still somewhat murky. E.g. the OP says the Honda was running perfectly. But she also seems to imply she bought it only recently. Also I also cannot tell when she took her Honda back twice to re-do the timing: Before or after the TB failed? Plus is the OP saying it won't pass California smog because of the CEL, or are there other things that will make it fail? Granted I can imagine all sorts of problems passing smog with this car.

It does not sound like the OP is doing the work herself, so probably best thing is to find a reliable import shop, have them read the code, check timing and compression, test drive, report back, ponder for a day, keeping in mind through all the late September smog deadline.

 

Below is a shortened edited version of the OP's first post that distills the information into its essential elements. Seriously, this story doesn't seem murky to me. On the contrary, the facts demand that the first diagnostic steps to be taken are to check the mechanical timing and cylinder compressions.

 

I am overwhelmed at how many people have replied to my post and offered helpful information. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

I have owned the car for 1 1/2 years, and it has run perfectly...until the timing belt snapped.

When I complained to mechanic #1, who replaced the timing belt, that the engine light was coming on, he laughed and told me it was impossible to check because as soon as the car was turned off, the light went off and the code went away. I wondered at the time why he couldn't hook up his "computer reader thingie," then drive the car until the light came on, then pull over and read the code.

The car was not running properly as soon as the timing belt was installed. It ran rough and died at idle. I took it back to him two or three times within a few days, and he kept resetting the timing and idle...which he had difficulty doing. I quit going back because he was clearly annoyed that the car kept coming back and I came to the conclusion that this repair was over his head anyway. Also, he had managed to adjust the timing to the point the car ran pretty well. However, the engine light still comes on at 50 mph and above. Mechanic #1 just laughted and told me not to worry about it if I didn't smell anything burning and the car was running okay. He said it didn't matter if the engine light was coming on. I was not satisfied with that answer, so I went to mechanic #2 (who does know mechanic #1).

Mechanic #2 checked out the car and said that it was running too rich and wouldn't pass smog. He said he didn't know the reason for that, but thought it might need a new catalytic converter, but if the catalytic didn't fix it, then he thought it would need a valve job and the car wasn't worth doing that. Catalytic converter and valve job together would cost $2300. I was in shock.

Mechanic #1 and mechanic #2 both checked the compression and determined that compression was great for the year of the car...mechanic #2 said the compression check was 200. I have no idea if that is good or bad.

I took it back to mechanic #3 because I had bought the car from him originally and I was hoping we could come to some agreement and maybe he could find another car for me. He was indignant about what I told him was wrong with it and said he believed, as long as the compression check was fine, that mechanic #1 didn't install the timing belt properly. He wants me to bring the car in tomorrow and he will put it on his diagnostics. I figure I have nothing to lose by doing that.

While my little car isn't pretty to look at (needs minor body work and a paint job), it has been a wonderful little car to drive and I love it. It has a four speed (or is reverse a speed? If so, it is a five speed) and has/had a lot of zip for a car that old.

I am a widow and lost my job last October. I can't afford to throw $2300 at this car. I only paid $1500 for it a year and a half ago. It was supposed to have a new used engine at that time. I live in Orange County, CA.

My preferance would be to keep this car running because I enjoy driving it so much. But realistically and financially, maybe I need to be looking at selling it to the state of California as a gross polluter and taking the $1,000 they give me and put it in another car...although there isn't much for sale in the way of used cars right now. I hate the thought of my little hatchback being crushed as a gross polluter.

 

What's the cost of the diagnostic? If it's not too expensive, then have it done and post as much detail as possible about the outcome.

 

Edit: Find a reputable import shop and let them look at the car. All three of your mechanics to date seem somewhat bent on taking advantage of or disrespecting you. I do not like Mechanic #2's proposal to put on a new cat converter. This is unrelated to your other problems (maybe smog excepted). Try www.cartalk.com (go to lower right, put in zip code, see if it gives any import shops; read the reviews). It found my favorite local import shop instantly.

I would be checking for the timing belt being off a tooth or two. That is Mechanic #1, who seems rather stunningly inexperienced with Hondas, did not install the timing belt quite right, and did not know enough to realize the reason he could not get the timing set correctly because he put the timing belt on wrong, by one or two teeth.

As for checking the code being thrown, here is a photo of the engine computer (also known as "control unit" or ECU):


It is under the carpet in the passenger side foot area. The light is in the upper center of the computer's top, as shown in the photo if one looks carefully. If you are a little handy try following these directions:
---
Turn the ignition ON (car is running), pull down the passenger's side carpet inspection flap from under the dashboard, and monitor the LED on the top of the control unit [a computer]. The LED indicates a system failure code by its blinking frequency.

The control unit LED can indicate any number of simultaneous component problems by blinking separate codes, one after another.
---

Unfortunately I do not think your particular Honda Civic has a computer that stores codes (but it might; easy to check), so you would need to unfold the carpet and have a passenger sit there and count blinks while you drive.

 

if the motor is truely off time, then there are a few things you can do. pull the motor apart and look at the head/block. take pictures and have some one give their best honest professional opinion on what you should do.


OR you can get the valve job done. and it would NOT cost ANYTHING near 2300. i get mine done(reseating and ports cleaned) for around 250 all day long. and then you can be certain the head is good and if the compression test says 2 then assuming the motor is good.


OR you can get a new motor for around 200-500 bucks and pay some mechanic like 3 or 400 to install it. but id take the motor to a shop to have it looked at before you purchase it.

do you have any pictures of the car, or can you take some??

 

i think short blinks eqeal 1 and long blinks eqeal 10...is this correct?
if so i would believe it is important...sorry ive never checked one for obd0 car

 

This should also help:

 

No, not correct for the OP's car. The long blinks are used by the ECUs in 1992-95 Civics (and some 1991s?).

 

ok just tryin to make sure she knows what she lookin at...

 

Where are you located OP? I'm sure there is someone here that could recommend a better shop near you.

 

 

While I don't actually have my car back from mechanic #3 yet, this is what he has stated to me.

Mechanic #1 installed the timing belt incorrectly. Mechanic #3 has not installed it correctly and re-timed it. He took it out and got it smogged.

Total cost to me: $260.

I will post again when I have had a chance to drive it and see if the engine light still comes on. Please keep your fingers crossed for me! And thanks!

 

I forgot to mention, Mechanic #1, who installed the timing belt incorrectly in the first place, is the one who recommended I buy a used Honda.

 

I have the car back in my possession. It seems to be running like it used to...perfectly. I won't know if the engine light still comes on or not until I take the ride to Long Beach on Monday. But right now I'm pretty happy...for $260 I got the timing belt installed correctly, the car timed right, and a California smog certificate transmitted to the DMV. I couldn't be more grateful.

Mechanic #3 wrote on my receipt that the timing belt hadn't been installed correctly so he had to reinstall it and reset the timing. He said I should try to get some or all of my money back from mechanic #1. We'll see.

Thank you all for being such a great help to me. Without your input, I would have sold the car to the state as a gross polluter thinking it needed a valve job and never let mechanic #3 take a shot at it. It's pitiful that I had to take it to three mechanics, who all profess to be Honda experts, in order to get a timing belt installed correctly!