Ok 1st I will explain the setup and why I have it, then get on to the issues. I am almost hesitant to post this in any forum as I always get the same argument and the problem never gets solved...

I know that aftermarket ignition on a Honda can handle alot, but I did not install this for power. The box was a Xmas gift and my OEM coil finally went out and the MSD setup was cheaper so I went with it. Not for HP gain, but I have noticed a GREAT improvement on mpg and throttle response....here is my problem and I ask that we please keep with the subject at hand.

92 Integra w/LS Motor

Setup:

NEW Honda OEM Distributor
NEW Honda OEM Rotor Button
NEW I.C.M (Ignitor)
MSD 6AL Box
MSD Blaster SS Coil
MSD Pro Cap
Sumitomo 7mm Wires
NGK-R Iridium Plugs

Over the last month or so my Tachometer bounces hard after about 3500rpm car loses power and gas mileage has been bad as well as my redline only going to about 5900rpm.

The car has left me stuck a few times by not starting after driving a while. Last week after leaving me stuck at the auto parts store...we found out that the PCV breather tubing was collapsing on acceleration and once that was replaced it started right up and the bouncing tach issue was fixed and I was on my way for $6

Yesterday It did not start after sitting in the garage over night, and after running some tests, noticed that there was no spark. I played with it for a while and she started right up and drove fine only the redline was still maxing out at about 5900rpm.

Today...I tried to start it up again and nothing. It just cranks (like the other times) So at that point, angry and frustrated I decided to give MSD tech line a call to see what they had to say.

We tested spark from the coil with a bolt to a ground and cranked...no spark! He then tells me to tap each of the 4 sides of the Ignition box gently with a rubber hammer and tried the same test..no spark!

Then he tells me to disconnect the white trigger wire and touch it to a ground, only to find a spark on contact. This tells rules out the MSD ignition system as the culprit and they suggest that I may have a faulty/defective Ignitor.

So I head out to the autoparts store to exchange it as it is still under warranty. Car dies on the way and a stranger drove me to the store and back and waits while I install the ignitor (He liked my car LOL). Once I installed it..she fires right up and idles fine, however when I hit the throttle its starts to bog and it dies! A few minutes goes by before she starts again, but as soon as I begin to release the clutch and move forward it turns off again!

We pushed the car 2 blocks to my garage and he is on his way. I then get back on the phone with MSD for the car to start right up and run fine while i'm on the phone (great!). He was unable to help me, telling me that my system was fine and I should explore other options. I let the car run and give it some gas and bring it quickly all the way up to see if it dies and she goes all the way to like 8500rpm bogging along the way! I have a stock LS with a stock PR4 ECU and knew right away something was wrong!

I then removed the Ignition Cap and checked all the connections and everything was good an tight! Then I decided to swap out ECU's (I always keep extra parts) and tried again. Still revs up to high, bogging along the way sounding like it wants to die but I keep it on buy keeping my foot on the throttle to keep it on. Ultimately giving me the same symptoms and ruling out the ECU as the culprit.

This problem is sporadic. I get a CEL when I crank for a few seconds with no success but I do not get a code. I walked away at this point and this was about an hour ago.

BTW..I am 32yrs old and in no way a noob, with over 15yrs messing with Honda's and tend to be the "Go To Guy" for difficult problems on Honda's in my area. I have a full shop in my home with testing equipment etc etc..

I AM STUMPED and need some real assistance! Can anyone lend a hand?

just a quick pick of the car, some of you may have seen it in Honda Tuning Magazine...

Thanx in advanced!

-Steve

 

could it possibly some wiring issue? did you ever try a new tps sensor?

 

whats fuel pressure at? What brand ICM? Before you try a new tps, check the voltage and signal

 

I have a guage on the filter and fuel pressure it at a consistent 40lbs. Brand name of the ICM is BWD and I'm reading 12v...

Voltage from the T.P.S is 5v and it has never been touched so it should be within manufacturers specifications however I have not back probed the sensor to know for sure

With all of that said...I do know however it's an intermittent spark issue so the senor is most likely working properly.

 

have you tried putting the car back to stock as far as the igniton system goes? it could still be a faulty msd box, also when you say honda oem distributor, do you mean dealer or distributor king garbage?

also I'm sure you've double checked this, but make sure all the connectors to the icm fit nice and tight...crimp them with a pair of needle nose pliers if need be

do you have any spare dizzy's to try? if I hadn't been given the background I would have definitely said check the ICM first

something is obviously not right if its revving that high...and the honda computer wouldn't let that happen all on its own...so you kinda have to point the finger at the msd box

the only other thing I can think of is...how do you have your aftermarket coil mounted? if its one of the round cylinder coils they do not like to be mounted sideways...they tend to overheat mounted sideways and should be mounted vertical...I doubt that would cause the over rev conditon, but it could be responsible for the intermittent no spark situation

hth, I can't think of anything else

 

So when you try to accelerate the engine sputters but will accelerate?

The Tach Jumping makes me think you have an ignitor going out or a bad ground someplace.

Did you do any work to the car recently (before symptoms showed up)?

 

I mean Dealer Purchased for the Dizzy...

Yes I have an extra dizzy (bare w/o coil or ICM) and that didnt change anything, so the new dizzy is good...unfortunately I don't have an extra working obd1 coil to try...I have 3 obd0's though

ICM connections are nice and tight..

Blaster "SS" coil (square one) mounted just under the 40/40 with the hardware supplied with the kit...

Over-revving stopped when I changed out the ECU! That could have been part of the culprit...

Yes...the car will accelerate, but "boggs" as it climbs, but ONLY it's when acting up..

Tach jumping problem was corrected when I replaced the collapsing PCV tubing from the I/M to the breather box (obd1 b18b1 shortblock)

No recent work...car comes out on the weekends, or when I wanna cruise. I drive a db1 as a dd

UPDATE:

After a long day, fixed 3 cars today, I took a buddy for a ride in my DA after fixing his so he can satisfy his erection for her, and she performed amazingly..as she should but would only redline at around 6300rpm?? Acceleration was good, power was excellent! But earlier to day I went out to pick up some CV axles for a Kia I am working on for a customer and she wanted to bog down and shut off, so I drove the db1..

I am convinced that the coil is going bad, and it's intermittent so it's not showing up under testing. I'm going to disconnect the 6AL and run it only with the coil to see if the problem happens. If not, then it's the box which I can send to be repaired by MSD for $88. If the coil ends up being bad, I'm going to MAKE them exchange it, as they want me to send it in for testing and it could be as long as 30days before they replace it or repair it! WTF am I supposed to do in the meantime??

Any other ideas welcome. I will update as I continue to test.

Oh yeah..I must say H-T FTMFW! I have not found this kind of straight forwardness in any other forum I post in. I appreciate people who are interested in helping with the issue at hand and not running their mouths off arguing over bullsh*t, and ruining a good thread!

Thank you for that! Looks like Iv'e found my new home...i'm getting to old for drama!

 

I highly suggest you buy an OEM coil, put it back to stock ignition, and sell the MSD for $88 instead of fixing it. You don't need it, the mileage gains are in your head or flawed math.

Just because you don't want to listen to people who know better, doesn't mean you should listen to those idiots at MSD either.

 

I have used MSD products for almost 15yrs in at least 16-17 of my own 22 cars that I've owned. This has nothing to do with refusing to listen to peopl who "know better". It's all a matter of preference, and this is my preference.

The MSD setup is not coming out.

 

had the car towed home today after dying on the road and popping the main battery fuse. It seems like this might be a ground, ignition switch, starter relay or somethin...

I'm pulling out the multimeter again tomorrow and gettin this taken care of!

 

I had the same problem with a msd6btm. I found out that the unit uses rpm rev limiter "pills" and usually come pre installed with a 7k rpm pill. Even though the ill says 7k it maxed at 5500 rpm. Try changing out the pill with a higher rpm. I believe they come in 500rpm increments. I am unsure if the 6al uses these but it I figured I'd throw it out there... It fixed my problem and have had no problems since

 

I have been using an 8000rpm pill since installation on this car last summer and the rpm would go all the way to 6800rpm as restricted by the ECU. Nothing has been changed since the problem started.

UPDATE:

I changed the main starter relay today. I absolutely hate Honda for the chosen location of this relay but it done and it has started up quickly every time thus far. I am not convinced that the problem is solved just yet as It has been intermittent and I need to drive it for a while. I have yet to pull it out of the garage for a test drive, but will after lunch.

This relay swap was changed due to popping the main battery fuse. It is one of the only pieces in the ignition system that was original. We'll see...

 

UPDATE:

Went out for a haircut, and on my way to the store to buy some terminals to remove the 6AL box and run the distributor directly to the coil...it dies! This time I was prepared. Last time I was on the phone with MSD he said to try tapping the box, so that's what I did..and it started right up! I was so happy!

So I re-route home and call MSD. He apologized for all the trouble and said he would give me an RMA # and repair the box for free. So the MSD box it out of the car.

I go out just after that on a repair call and the car dies on me again! NO IDEA WTF NOW!!!

during one of it's spasms...it over revved again...
This is driving me crazy!

 

Now that the msd box is out of the equation and while the car is dead, check for spark. Keep a spark tester on ya, so you can make sure its a good strong spark.

Does the car spit and sputtering then die, or does it just shut off?

 

It just dies, but I think I fixed it! (but I have said that before!)

I decided to take the dizzy out and check all the wires going to the ICM. It turns out that the solder one of the wires that pigtails off to the ICM out of the Dizzy to the MSD box was cracked the the wire was 1/2 connected! It was underneath the heat wrap so it was not visible when it was looked upon before.

Once I removed the heat wrap the wire broke in 1/2!

I resoldered all the connections in the dizzy and put everything back together and wouldn't you know...6800rpm revs, steady idle and super fast start up!! I even drove around for a bit tonite and It seems to be running as it should...

I will put the MSD box in tomorrow and see what happens since we now know it was not the problem!

 

If the problem persists, try a main relay.

 

sounds like a secondary ignition problem. Check the coil.

 

Main relay is new too...


So far so good! Has not given me any negative symptoms since re-soldering those connections in the dizzy. About to get my kid from school and this is usually when it acts up...we will see!

 

UPDATE:

Well it seems like the problem is taken care of! Apparently that loose wire was the culprit for all of my troubles. I went out a few times today, I was even bold enough to get on the Interstate to go see a car I am putting a motor in this weekend!

I'm very happy that this issue is corrected, as It was getting to the point to where It was keeping me in the house, and most of my work is mobile!

Thank you everyone for all of your help, over 24hrs and no issues!

-Steve