Im under the impression milling the bottom of the head or using a thinner gasket will create higher compression? If this is true what kind of gains can you see from a thinner gasket and what are the risks? What would be a ballpark figure to have the head milled down? Will all of this screw with emissions?

 

Any reduction in combustion chamber volume above the block deck surface will increase compression.
Yes, A thinner gasket or shaving the head will accomplish this.

The down side to this?
You could suffer a loss of proper sealing with the thinner gasket
You could suffer a cracked / warped cylider head from removing too much metal.

The more permenant solution would be to install high(er) compression Pistons. Your head remains intact, and you don't have to scrounge for specialty gaskets.

P

 

It depends on how much you mill the head down. I don't have much experience with the exact amount you take off or with machining in general. If your just decking it to make it flat and true then they don't take much off ( a few thousandths). Yes, milling the head down will increase the compression ratio, a thinner head gasket will also increase compression. You have to be careful because the piston to valve clearance will be less and higher compression ratios will require timing changes to prevent detonation. I know it's not the exact answer you were lookin for but I hope it helps.

 

Here's what I've found through my experience...

1. The best bet for doing this is taking no more than .030" off for a typical Honda head. This will bump compression up about .5, maybe a smidgen more.

2. Use an OE head gasket, don't bother risking problems with anything else.

3. An adjustable cam gear is highly recommended, because milling the head effectively advances the timing. You'll need the cam gear to retard it back to factory specs or risk serious damage due to increased knock.

Like was stated above, if you are considering an aftermarket cam or regrind, you'll have to pull the head and clay it to make sure you have enough piston to valve clearance. Gains will be small, if any. Tuning what you already have will be much more advantageous.

 

Well i was looking at these head gaskets

http://bisimoto.net/store/index.php?...ort=20a&page=2

Im not sure how thick the stock one even is, i looked around jc whitney and autozone and none of the oe replacement gaskets really say how thick they are. I also was looking into installing the stage one cam which is suppose to work on a stock head and be emissions friendly, and then having it tuned at bisimoto since there near me and seem to be very reputable. The problem with pistons is this doesnt seem like a very easy swap back and forth every 2 years to pass smog, is there a cr i can bump up to and not have a problem with emissions? Ive never actually swapped pistons but am willing to learn, about how long does a piston job ake once you know what you are doing? You dont always have to have the stroke or bore machined out either do you?

 

The average OE Honda gasket is about .026" when crushed. Not sure why you'd want to spend twice as much for a head gasket when you don't need that one.

No offense, but you don't want to deal with swapping pistons, especially being as you seem quite mechanically disinclined. Call Bisi and talk to him about your goals. You can't do too much being that you're in the **** kingdom of california, but he can help you get a little more power out of your car while keeping it owner-friendly.

 

Not to mention the games decking/milling plays with cam timing... I use OEM HGs exclusively at over 700HP..

NEVER been an issue.

DOnt **** with what works.

 

i wouldnt say im mechanically disinclined, i just dont know a whole lot about what im doing. But everyone has to start learning some time. I did a JY motor swap with some help in a 92 bretta once thats about the extent of my skills so far in life.

I really want to learn how to do things and do them the proper way. I want to get my accord going quicker then add 50 hp shot of nos and ill be happy just a faster daily driver thats all. after that we have an 03 lancer in the yard no one uses id like to convert to a track car. I dont make a whole lot but i can save for parts and tunes but not really labor.

I really like to go fast what can i say, i just really want to learn and do research and follow through on all this stuff. I was an electrician for a few years so im somewhat inclined to build things as long as i know exactly what im doing. I think the lancer will be a fun project, The accord is a bit of a pain in the *** though considering i want to keep it smog legal. Im not looking to build a 9 second car or anything id just like to run low 14's to mid 13's in it and keep it legal.

 

What year is your Accord? It takes quite a bit to make an Accord run even mid 14's, especially in a state where you have so many laws governing how you can mod your car. It's not gonna happen by milling the head or using a stage 1 cam.

 

Talking about fast Accords brings to mind the next episode of "The Fat & the Furious"

Althiough the phrase doesn't quite deserve the "Oximoron' label, The effort could truely be Herculean (particularly on the Left coast)

P

 

its a 2001 lx 2 door f23a4.

I know alot of people out there dont think much of the engines but the guy on bisi uses them to set records, so its got to be possible maybe not easy. I do admit i live in a messed up state which frowns upon aftermarket turbo. It makes it so hard to mod your car and not know if it will pass emissions here or not. I just want to be able to make hp and easily undo everything to pass smog if need be.

I really like my accord though as a daily driver and wish i would have bought the v6, instead of the i4 would have been a little faster and there are CARB approved supercharger kits. Im a tall guy and the civic just feels to cramped. If this car rand 14's i would be happy, i just love the feeling of my friends STI with an upgraded turbo the way it feels like its going to snap your neck when you chirp the wheels

 

Heavy *** car. I've owned two of them.


Bisi Ezhora doesn't use the anything from the F23 in his race cars. His car(s) run modified F22a Non-VTEC motors. There is a night and day difference between the heads on the F23 and F22, and unfortunately, the F23 design is no where near as efficient, and doesn't have half the potential as the F22.

Bisi helped out a friend of mine with his F23 build a while back. It was pretty mild, with a level 1 cam and the usual bolt-ons, tuned with AEM EMS and I believe it made 153whp. Not bad, but sadly that's pretty high for what most any naturally aspirated F23 has made so far, and that's still a high 15 second car. I haven't seen anyone besides myself make over ~157whp out of the motor, but here in S. Carolina, I can modify my Accord however I want.

There are guys in other states who have full boosted setups, and every two years they convert back to stock for inspection, but I'd imagine you could get into some good trouble if you were pulled over and the cop decided to 'inspect' your car.

 

[quote] "but here in S. Carolina, I can modify my Accord however I want" [quote]

Well, yes. And if you're still stationed with the USAF, the motor pool becomes really handy too. :p
Find a use for that spare Dash Cluster yet?

 

i got one done a few years back for $45. Just had it trued up to 100% make sure it wasn't warped.

The real cost is in the labor and the new head gasket and head bolts.


machining down the head for a higher CR will probably still pass inspection. it is a standard practice to machine a head flat if there is a blown head gasket, and there is a spec for how far to machine it in the factory service manual. I would hope that the peoples republic of kalifornia wouldn't prohibit a standard engine repair "best practice." At any rate, I think it would fall under the don't ask, don't tell sort of thing. Not that I'm encouraging you to do anything illegal.

Some guys take 1 or even 2 layers out of the factory 3 layer HG. Try searching in the all motor forum. I personally wouldn't mess with that on a daily driver, but some people have had success with it.

Swapping pistons is not something you really could reasonably do to pass inspection every 2 years. I wouldn't even let it enter my mind. Swapping the motor would be easier.


OT but 157whp? Please tell me that is stock bottom end. Otherwise that is demoralizing.

 

[quote=P_Adams;37442142][quote] "but here in S. Carolina, I can modify my Accord however I want" Yep, It worked great to hold my trash can down so the wind didn't blow it over on trash pick-up day.


Unless you've seen better? I'm talking F23 block and F23 head. Some people have swapped pistons out, but they always used an F22/H23/H22 head, so I don't count that. Several guys with autotragics have made low 140's, and a few guys with 5-speeds have made mid 150's. I got up to 169/164 with stock exhaust. A few more mods and 2.5" exhaust and I'm at 187whp after retuning. I just ordered my Bisimoto cam and working on installing the H23 IM. Just as I warned the OP about milling too much, I'm weary about my P2V clearance since my head is milled so much. Hopefully have it installed and tuned for an even at the end of this month. The F23 isn't a great NA platform, but I don't see why no one else has experiences results like myself. I even ran my 15.7 with just 146whp, so I know my dyno numbers aren't inflated.

Most swap to H22 before investing as much time as I have making the F work. It's nice to walk those guys down on the highway though, despite the G's they just dropped on the swap.

 

I know a certain someone that runs mid 11s trappinig over 130 on street tires and mid boost on pump gas launching like a girl running boost by gear limited to 17 PSI (14 PSI in 1st) untill 4th gear scared to frag trannys. In a CD5 with full interior and EVERYTHING still works (but no AC anymore). That car sits on Hubcaps doing so.

I also know that certain someone had another 150WHP to dial into the car... That same car will be deep in the tens this year with another 100ish WHP on Slicks with a PPG gearset and is driven, ON THE STREET every time the sun shines.

Hello 10 second street Accord, actually... Its been a 10 second car for a while. ****ing trannys are the only thing thats held me back from driving it hard enough to get me there...

Not anymore.




BISI this BISI that... You cant base your motor on what he does with his. There are COUNTLESS hours of RnD in that car, and cubic dollars spent over time (sponsorship counts as money you know). The F is a very underestimated powerplant for sure, Back when TwKD and I were making well over 300 WHP/TQ on stock blocks, everyone would tell us how the motor wouldnt last and **** and how it was dumb, Well... Look how that all turned out, Fs are awesome platforms....


BUT... DOnt expect 400+ WHP out of one because Bisi makes alot of power.... Thats a full race car running on alcohol if memory serves correctly. What hes doing is awesome, but it doesnt mean your going to make crazy power just because you choose to run an F.

My friend Matt up here has a 320WHP NA F motor, and yes... Its true... The F22Ax heads are the ones you want...

. BISI had a big hand in helping him out... BUT While the F is a good motor, there are parts that are more desirable than others to make power, however those parts need ALOT of time and money spent to let them work in their chosen applications.

 

Are we even reading the same thread? Who said anything about boost?


PS: Bisi ran his 9.67 on gas...

 

Pretty sure hes on alcohol... Like I said, I COULD be wrong... As for the hammer.... Cute. My comments werent directed AT you genius...

Moreso directed at the guy implying an Accord cant break 13 or 14 or whatever he said. Pull your head out, insert tampon... Youll be better off.



By the way... Trying to make power by shaving the head is retarded as is using anything other than an OEM HG... Im SURE my 700HP BOOSTED motor generates a ****load more cylinder pressure than anyone else who will even read this thread does...... That being said... There is no reason to use anything else...

... Like I ALSO said earlier.



You may now go swing on nuts again.

 

Ok well i will rule out having the head milled. Maybe NA isnt the way to easily go in california. The problem i have with forced induction is this. You bolt the kit up the only one i can find is a turbonetics which is 3500 dollars. This seems like a whole lot of money considering i only want to run 4-7psi since all the internals suck and im scared to jack my transmission, i had it replaced once under warranty with a new that has the proper amount of jets but still.

Also im under the impression you have to get your car tuned if you turbo which is 160 an hour at bisi's shop, then you have to have it detuned when you unbolt the turbo for emissions! Then reverse the whole process. Ive heard you can piece togather a turbo kit for around 700-1000 if you do some shopping but its really the whole tuning thing. And on top of the tuning gonna spedn a 120 buscks for an odb1 harness and then ow much ever hondata costs someone said like 900 bucks. Seems like alot of money just to try and gain 50 hp, I could understand spending this if you were gonna run 17 pounds of boost but thats really not my goal.

Basically im looking for anyway to make some HP that is easily undo able every two years? Im beginning to think nitrous is my only real option here with some bolt ons. The whole thing with the turbo like i said is that im under the impression you HAVE to get tuned even if your running 4lbs of boost.

 

I'm not even going to acknowledge that nonsense with a reply.

To the OP, if I'm reading between the lines correctly, you still have an auto trans. Make getting rid of that your first priority.

This thread is going no where fast. I'm out.

 

I paid 80 for 2 heads, but they only had to make it straight. If you want let us say 1/16 cut they will charge more.

 

yes. you should tune it if you boost it. you should tune it if you spray it. you should tune it if you have a bunch of bolt ons. see a pattern? You are clowning yourself if you spend thousands of dollars on mods, but won't spend $300 on some dyno time to get the most out of it.

 

Milling can be a good way to gain compression IF you know what you are doing. I have had much success in doing so. Its not advised to just mill a bunch of metal off and think your 12.0-1 motor will make more power.

You need to do the following:
-upgrade cams to take advantage of increased compression, this is not necessary
-degree your cams in with cam gears
-check, valve to valve and piston to valve clearances
-upgrade fuel, I have had success with e85
-tuning

If you don't have the know how to do the above, it will be rather costly to pay someone to do so.