For people who don't know me, I race a 96 Integra GSR in Honda Challenge. The car was fully built when I bought it and is very well sorted. The one thing I don't like about it is that the ABS has been removed and it has completely replumbed brake lines with a brake bias valve.

I have had problems with locking up the fronts, particularly late in the race when being chased. It is quite a problem now. I would have had a pretty good chance of winning the race this past Sunday except that I locked up my fronts and went off track while chasing the class leader.

Granted, I have only run 6 races ever and have only had 10 total days on track with this car. Is it likely that I will improve with my braking or should I look at trying to reinstall the ABS system? I have talked to racers that are huge fans of ABS and others that consider it a crutch. I am also still running Kumho EV700s because I am pretty sure that I would quickly flat spot Hoosiers at this point. However, I feel like my Kumhos are really going away late in the race. Do Kumhos tend to get greasy before Hoosiers?

Basically, I am trying to figure out whether my braking problem is a factor of:
A) Not having ABS
B) Crappy tires
C) Just plain overdriving my tires
D) Poor threshold braking ability
or combinations of the above.

During the last race weekend I got completely used under braking by Warren, Alex and Scott.

P.S. I don't know what to do with the brake bias valve. Right now I have set to almost full restriction since I was having a problem at Summit with badly locking up the rears.


[Modified by chrisb, 10:49 AM 8/9/2002]

 

I am far from an expert here but have you tried adjusting your brake bias? Is it cockpit adjustable?

 

I don't think you have to worry about people not knowing you at this point . . .


Just hazzarding a guess and watching you drive I would say you have a comnination of several factors working here:

- Overdriving a litte
- Brake bias incorrectly set

Threshold braking is certainly an art that several of us *cough*Karl*cough* have not yet mastered because we are ABS ******. This could be where your problem lies as well - especially if you have a lot of ABS experience. I know that driving ABS cars really tends to de-sensitize you in regards to feeling the pending lockup. I know when I drive Diane's car in autocrosses I don't ever feel the lockup until it has already happenned and I hear/see the evidence of it.


Drew - Who really has NO idea how to use his brakes properly even with ABS

 

DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT reinstall that crap.


practice makes perfect, you answered your above problem when you stated you've only had 10 events.


yack- who hates ABS

 

same pads front and rear?
both fronts lock up at the same time?

 

hi chris!

I have driven many many different cars on track in the last 10 years or so; I believe that a good functioning ABS system is definitely an advantage (such as seen on my cousin's J-stock 88 M3). This advantage is really really magnified during a rainy race, too.

That said, neither of my track cars has ABS, and I have learned to be a very effective threshold braker. Remember, it is normal for the braking/traction conditions to change during a race, and you must be prepared to react instantaneously to these conditions. This will come with more miles/experience.

You should go to a lapping day before the next race with your car set up as you normally race it (same tires/brakes). Spend the day dialing in your brake bias system; remember to only adjust it a little at a time and then test. You are shooting for barely locking up the front axle before the rears...

On a last note, if you decide to refit your car with ABS, I have the complete ABS system still in my 93 GSR shell (pumps, wiring, ecu, sensors, etc.). I would sell it to you cheap, my ECHC brother!

later,
Todd

 

I am running Hawk Blues up front and stock pads in back. I think both fronts are locking up at the same time. I only seem to do it at the worst possible time. ie. Trying to late brake Warren and pass him on the white flag lap. My Dad was saying that I was locking up my rears under braking but I think I was probably just locking up the inside left at the turn after the kink. That turn and turn 14 are where I was having the most trouble. I wish I understood more how the rear brakes are involved in braking. Could it be now that I don't have enough rear braking power since I am running full restriction to the rear brakes? I think Bookler said he ran his CRX like that too. Also, I believe Bookler said that with full restriction the rear brakes are only producing 40% of their stock braking power. Right now I am just leaving the bias valve alone in the car. I have enough to worry about without thinking about that thing.

 

If I'm not mistaken installing ABS would make your problem worse. ABS isn't intended to be used in racing situations and having grippe pads and tires would cause the ABS to kick in sooner than you would like. Do you know if your 96 teg has the ODB1 conversion done on it? Sweet f***ing ride.

 

Yes, it was converted to OBDI before Summit. Thanks for the compliment. Yeah, I won't put ABS back on. I am going to just have to learn how to drive it.

 

Chris, when you late brake someone in a corner, are you still smooth, or do you wail on them? Fast pedal inputs will induce lockup for sure. I re-learned this at Carlisle when my ABS chit the bed. I'd gotten used to just waiting until the last minute and wailing on them...yeah, that didn't work at all with standard brakes.

I found that when I slowed down my pedal inputs a bit, the problem solved itself.
Of course, you haven't been driving a car for 4 years leaning on ABS as a crutch like I have...so maybe this isn't the problem.

Just sort of thinking out loud.

 

If you're really having a hard time modulating perhaps the tires are heat-cycled to death? Try a different pad? What about tire pressures are you closely monitoring those?

 

ABS...What's that?

While not a racer (yet) I've had my share of practice braking without ABS at HPDEs in my Civic. Several instructors have noted my varied styles: granny-braking, going smoothly and quickly to maximum deceleration, or just stomping the pedal and hoping nothing bad happens. I tended to wobble between the two extremes for quite a while, until I took a few sessions to concentrate on nothing but threshold braking. I do much better now.

I think it has a lot to do with repetition and muscle memory, just like anything else that requires coordination to do well. Eventually, I'd like to reach the point where I can do it consistently without thinking about it, no matter the circumstance. Practice is probably the ticket.

 

You guys that are making fun of ABS.....Watch F1 some time. Do you think they would pass up something that would give them an advantage over their competition? ABS, if the system works right, is WONDERFUL on track! Yeah, you don't get to brag about mastering threshold braking but that really doesn't matter when you pass you competition in turn 1!!!

I wish I had ABS on EVERY car I have driven on track. One less thing to have to worry about when trying to catch the guy in front of you.

And, just because you HAVE ABS doesn't mean you have to use it all the time. I only remember ABS coming into play when I drove my Talon a few times each weekend. You can STILL be a threshold braker with ABS. It just keeps you from flat spotting a tire when you miss!!

 

ABS on a Type-R =
ABS on any other car I've driven... with exception of maybe an M3 =
Anything else, I would take it off and use threshold braking.
My previous track car didn't have it, and I still feel that my braking in that car felt smoother, more linear and shorter in distance... maybe it's in my head, but hey... the itr brakes kick a$$!

 

F1 has way to many driver aids IMO. Yes its still the toughest series in the world, but traction control? Gimme a break! I admit I autox with ABS on, but only because I'm afraid of flatspotting my tires

 

Wait, are you driving that red/silver car that has been kicking the ECHC directors' collective asses? Yeah, we know who you are You have got them talking about banning red cars. Or cars with big wings. Or people named "Brinson".

One thing I haven't seen mentioned -- the Hoosier is a grippier tire, and they are gonna be able to outbrake you, ABS or not, on better tires.

I agree with Ron above, my ABS will come on like once or twice a session. It is a great learning tool. My ABS says to me, "He dumbass, you're too hard on the brakes here" without making me flatspot a tire. Then again, I'm not racing...

 

I have been racing my 1995 ITS GSR where we are not allowed to use ABS so I have removed the ABS computer and all the wheel senors and tried to figure out what combination of pads / tires work best.

I have basically stopped using Hawk blues just because of the rotor damage they cause and the brake pedal feel / modulation (ie flat spot). I have been using the Carbotech XP pads for almost a year and the are an extremely more forgiving pad under braking. The tenedency to lock up the tires is much less and they are very rotor friendly.

I also know that the Kuhmos you are using always become greasy, especially on a car as heavy as the GSR. Some of the lighter cars may be OK, but once you get over 2500 lbs I don't think they work very well.

We ran Hooisers for the first 1/4 of the year for the ECR series then switched to the Toyo RA1 225/50/15. The toyo is not quite as fast but they are very consisent over an 1.5 hour race, where the Hooiser is fall off after 20-30 minutes. Of course it does depend on the track.

So I would suggest to switch to Toyo tires and switch to Carbotech pads. I have been using the AXXIS ultimate pads in the rear and am happy to say that I do not get any rear lock up.

If you have the brake bias you should be able to dial the rear brakes out so you don't get any rear lock up. I just left the stock proportioning valve in place and figured that I would play with rear pads compunds until they did not lock up any more.

Good Luck

Scott Seck
#38 ITS GSR

 

Yep, its one of the GREAT benefits of ABS. It pretty much ends the worry of flat spotting a tire.

Except for a very select few occasions (like wet grass or snow or sand) ABS will allow you to brake harder and stop in a shorter distance than you can do yourself. Doubters? What does ABS do? Once you are into it it threshold brakes for you! Can't stop any faster than that can we......

And yes, F1 has A LOT of driver's aids. No doubt about that....

 

My car still has the ABS in it but it doesn't work. Fried the sensors at CMP last year. I haven't bothered to fix it because I've never really used them unless it was raining or I just have a big screw-up.

The only lockup problem I have is the inside rear, and I really don't think that is solvable. It doesn't really hurt anything anyway. I've run on the blues and the XPs without a lock-up problem. I'm not going to publicly comment on the XPs, and the only downside I've seen with the blues is rotor destruction.

I agree with Scott S. on the Hoosiers after about 30 minutes, but I've found that they do well for our 30 to 40 minute sprint races. If I were doing Enduros, I too would go to Toyos.
I have also heard from multiple sources that the Kumhos go greasy and die fast when pushed hard. All of these sources were in heavier FWD cars.

Remember that you and I pushed each other VERY hard for the entire race on Sunday. My tires and brakes started to die at the end of the race as well. We were both relenlessly wailing on our cars on a hot day at a track that is rough on brakes. I was not surprised at all when my car went to chit, I was just happy yours went to chit too .

 

It depends on what car the ABS is on...I don't think GS-R ABS is close to threshold braking. So yes, it is possible to stop faster than some ABS systems using threshold braking, provided you have the necessary skills.

 

-ABS allows one thing that threshold braking will never allow you to do, and that is allow maximum braking force befor lock up on each induvidual tire. So if the car is in an unbalance situation or on bumpy area each wheel is being used to its fullest. The only way you could beat that is if you have four brake pedals... So ABS is superior.


-And about the F1 thing and drivers aids... the F1 people in charge do not want any of those aids to assist drivers, but since so many teams cheat and hide the data in infinity complex computer systems, they are making an even playing field for all teams... it is too bad, but every team wants that edge on the compitition.

-nate (who will always love ABS and no flatspots on his R compounds )

 

GSR abs =

practice your braking techniques and you will soon master the art of on-track-braking

 

what Owen said.

Exactly. Wail on the brake pedal quickly and you'll lock the front tires up before the weight transfer that gives you more grip up front occurs.

I have no ABS (I also have no Honda, but that shouldn't matter).
I use the most aggressive pad I can up front with the biggest POS pad I can find for the rear. All the rear does is keep the gas tank from dragging. The front does practically all the braking.

Be smooth with your inputs, perfect your modulation and you're there.

 

Perhaps an adjustment to the rear rebound may help you? A softer rebound setting with allow quicker weight transfer to the front under braking.