Karl,
I think I have got you this time - I have a legitimate shot at being the king of random problems:

So after much time and effort (see other posts), I finally completed swapping all of the bushings in the front end of my eg hybrid. I ended up using a combination of ES eurethane and OPM Motorsports' pimpy delrin bushings. All this took me 20-30 hours because I cleaned, de-rusted, and painted everything.

For the hell of it, I decide to swap the upper control arms to pick up the added castor.

So, tired as hell, I finally got the car back on the ground. I take the car for a drive and it feels okay but I get rubbing noises at full lock and intermittent metallic grinding at 2/3 lock.

The rubbing I chock up to the wheel rubbing the fender liner from the added camber.

The grinding looked like it could be coming from the rim hitting the clamps for my brake ducts.

I spend the next evening re-fabbing the brake ducts so they won't rub.

After that, I drive it again and the car is grinding even worse now.

I pull the car back in the garage and look *again* for the problem. I couldn't believe it when I found it. The added castor is causing the knuckle to "flop over" slightly when you turn the wheel. This in turn caused the rotor to grind on the end of the lower control arm, near the knuckle, destroying the rotor.

I now get to dissasemble the suspension I just put together and swap the upper control arms back.

Then I get to take the calipers off so I can get the rotors off.

Then I get to the hats off the rotors (8 loctited screws / side) and replace them.

Then I get to put it all back together.

And I still don't know if the car will stop in a straight line.

What a great hobby.

-Phillip


[Modified by ITR_Hybrid, 9:19 AM 8/9/2002]

 

Don't use loctite on brake bolts or anywhere near the brakes. It's too hot, and the loctite doesn't work at those temps anyways.

Warren

 

What kind of car is this? How is the rotor hitting anything? Pics?

 

Impressive. Most impressive.

People, I think Phil is a contendor for the throne.

 

Forgive me for my ignorance. As Karl frequently points out I don't know that much about my car. But why in god's name would you want more caster (positive I guess?) and why would anyone swap upper control arms? I am actually kind of bummed that my shop can't get my caster back to factory spec since Integras don't seem to have any caster adjustment like even my pile of crap 3rd gen Prelude does.

I don't know. Maybe I am just a dumb rookie but it seems like a lot of people just like to create a lot of work and DNFs for themselves. I have lost count of the number of DNFs related to swapping control arms and bad oil cooler installs in ECHC. I guess I will regret not doing an oil cooler if I blow an engine but I am happy to be finishing races in the meantime.

P.S. I am not being a smart *** at all. I just really don't understand the advantage of some of the mods that people are doing that generally seem to keep people from finishing races.

 

No way... impressive yes, but he still seems to have a way to go.

Crank pulleys falling off is about the most impressive thing I've seen in a while. Actually Karl, I'm beginning to think that you actually picked up the "touch" from Pete. The force seems to be quite strong in that one.

 

True. Phil should come back to us when he not only breaks a bunch of stuff on his car, but has a piece of furniture in his house commit suicide. Maybe the coffeemaker too.

Chris - caster works as follows. Imagine two motorcycles, one a "chopper" where the wheel is out in front, the other a normal bike. The chopper has a lot of caster. The reason this is good is that when he turns the handlebars, the front wheel kind of "folds over" and as a result, you pick up negative camber.

Make sense?

 

Yeah, I guess so. I guess I am just a big fan of the KISS method. You can't win races if your car is sitting on a flatbed. I think I will just continue to run more static negative camber and possibly rebuild my engine slightly more often rather than periodically throw a bunch of oil on the track and break axles and all the other problems that seem to occur with swapping a-arms.

 

Hey Phil, when you get the new parts in to fix your car, lemme know. I'd probably be able to come over and help you tear that thing apart and put it back together. Might make it at least a bit less painful to have two people spinning wrenches on the car.

 

Hey Chris,

There is no proven coorelation between broken axles and swapping of upper A Arms.

But I too agree, after reading Dougs latest addition to his site.. the more you make it go faster, the less you actually .. go.

 

Waitaminute..... I still don't understand why his rotor is hitting his lower control arm. Just by moving the upright back slightly shouldn't have any affect on the rotor vs. lower control arm clearance. If it does, show me.

 

my advice to racers....daily drive your crap so you know what is going on with joo kaa before you get to the track!!!!

especially those who keep braking down!!!!!!!

i hate to see that cause good racers aren't able to be on track....personally i can't afford not to race once i pay for the track time....plus i like you all to be out there.....looks really good with 20-30 cars lined up!! maybe even more next year!!

and i do love the 13/13 rule.....keeps you on your toes as to where others are around you!!!!!!!

 

Hiya,
Will send pics later. The car in an EG / ITR Hybrid. Stock EG lower control arms. The goals of the added castor is it causes the tire pick up more camber when you turn the wheel. Per the "chopper" analogy, the knuckle no longer turns around an axis that is straight up and down. Instead, it sort of "flops" over a bit, causing more camber.

The problem is that my set-up has the brake rotor only 1/4" from the end of the control arm in order to shove a nearly 12" rotor and large 4-pot caliper under a 15" rim.

Ironically, I subscribe to the kiss principle. I have huge brakes thinking that I would have less brake related (fade) problems. I swapped the arms because it was easy to do when the suspension is completely dissasembled.

 

Sounds like the rotor offset is wrong, or the rotor is simply too big for your car.

 

The control arm swap is actually quite simple. Even I have not found a way to break stuff because of it. Other stuff, sure

Actually, I take that back. The upper CA swap is a difficult PITA, breaks everything, is bad for handling and tire wear, and you should not do it.

 

You know what.. that actually makes sense. Unfortunately the tickets and possibility of IMPOUND far out-wheigh the "chances" of a breakdown on track day.

 

Hi folks,
Played with the car some more last night and learned a little more about the problem. The problem was not the upper control arm swap (although that does exaggerate (sp?) the problem. The main problem is ride height. Or more specifically, a design flaw around the 11.75" set-up involving ride height.

Simply put, if the car rides too low, the lower control arm swings up and the end of it rubs on the rotor. With the 11.75" kit, the rotor runs much closer to the control arm than you would normally see.

With the new bushings in place, the car "settled" about a 1/2" as the new bushings allow much freer movement than the stock rubber ones. This allowed the rotor to rub. The problem can be fixed by raising the ride height, but that is not much fun in a race car.

I will be contacting Hasty and see what he can come up with as far as design modifications. He has been great so far, so I am hoping he will come through for us. A race-only brake kit that doesn't work on lowered cars is not very helpful.

As a short term fix, I am going to raise the car up about 3/4" and realign it.

I will let folks know what Brian says.

-Phillip