so it seems T1, fullrace, and the rest of us are ripping people off
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From: Home of the fastest Hondas in the 417 area since, 1997, usa
so it seems T1, fullrace, and the rest of us are ripping people off
We have a local "V8 experts" that are basically saying we are ripping people off with equal length or twin scroll manifolds. According to these guys you will see NO difference between his or any other log style manifold and a equal or twin scroll. Here is his latest setup for GTO.
here are a few of their quotes, I am 2nrsOfSpringfield
"The general theory of equal length exhaust manifolds in forced induction is to focus the sound/pressure energy of the exhaust gases through piping which directs the flow of said exhaust gases into a collector.
If this was such the case why does noone build equal length turbo headers.....Its under Pressure Just like steve saaid, Most setups at a 2-1 ratio! Im all for learning more and thats some good info you osted but i posted DYNO fact not heresay. And the dyno proved what everybody says...Equal length will not make big power gains in a turbo application.
There are technical formulas for the anount of heat you have to transfer across a given space yes, in this application however there is a rule of thumb that many follow, and its as simple as "you want this much power with this turbo do this..." and so on. like people say "a 3" downpipe is good for 1000 hp after that it gets restrictive"...
people do.
and
http://www.full-race.com/articles/Bs...st_writeup.pdf
Its only a stupid honda but exhaust gas is exhaust gas.
But do they see gains worth the extra money vs a log???? NO
here are a few of their quotes, I am 2nrsOfSpringfield
Originally Posted by 74novaguy
Originally Posted by 2nrsOfSpringfield
Originally Posted by 74novaguy
If less restriction meant more power then why would anybody even have back pressure in a turbo car? Less restriction means the charge retains less heat and velocity....Greatly effecting spool up and power. A 2-1 pressure difference in exhaust to boost is very common and has made tons of pwer and went VERY fast. Equal lenght, large diameter and high speed mergesdont have near the affect on turbo systems.
Originally Posted by 417 Motorsports
ok, I have a question. Lets say on that GTO Blake. The Turbo is closer to the one side of the motor, is there a formula to help figure out what size/length pipe to run from the opposing manifold/header, or is it basically just a trial and error formulation?
Originally Posted by 417 Motorsports
Originally Posted by RowdyAudi
Originally Posted by 74novaguy
If this was such the case why does noone build equal length turbo headers.....
people do.
and
http://www.full-race.com/articles/Bs...st_writeup.pdf
Its only a stupid honda but exhaust gas is exhaust gas.
Last edited by efi2nr; Jan 21, 2009 at 10:05 AM.
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From: Home of the fastest Hondas in the 417 area since, 1997, usa
Re: so it seems T1, fullrace, and the rest of us are ripping people off
here is just one of the thing I posted back to then that they say is just heresay
To date the most power this shop has made out of a V8 is right at 1000hp, this guys are cracking us up. Please discuss
The general theory of equal length exhaust manifolds in forced induction is to focus the sound/pressure energy of the exhaust gases through piping which directs the flow of said exhaust gases into a collector. The collector area of the exhaust manifold must be a shallow angle merge to enduce a laminar flow to the exhaust gas. The joining of all cylinders at an equal rate, with a non-turbulent flow will focus the maximum amount of exhaust gas energy into the turbine housing. You are essentially tuning the energy waves so that the collection of the waves is addition of each wave into one giant pressure wave. Its basic sound/pressure wave amplitude theory.
If this would not occur, pressure/sound waves would be traveling out of phase with each other and possibly creating almost zero energy to spool up the turbine. This would be the extreme case where the pressure/sound waves from one cylinder would travel with pressure/sound waves from another cylinder, and would follow 90 degree out of phase. The addition of both of these waves would create a net gain of zero, since they cancel each other out.
There is alot more to creating a equal length manifold than just tuning the pressure/sound waves since they are changing with rpm. The length of the runner of the manifold must be taken into consideration as well. The longer runner will enduce a higher pressure to a certain point, but energy will be lost with heat loss. Material selection such as 8 gauge 304 stainless aids in creating a adiabatic (no heat transfer) boundary to a certain extent in the runner design. This insulating effect of the thicker gauge steel allows to retain the energy (heat) to aid in spool up time, as well as keeping the medium (exhaust gas) high heat to aid in the pressure/sound wave propagation since the speed of sound is directly related towards temperature (higher heat, faster travel).
There is even more to manifold design including exhaust scavenging effects of a properly designed manifold to a certain extent. This uses the vacuum between pressure waves to clean the residual out of the combustion chamber. A fresher, denser charge mixture is drawn into the combustion chamber allowing for more work/heat transfer to occur. Greater work=Greater efficiency=Greater torque=Greater horsepower.
If this would not occur, pressure/sound waves would be traveling out of phase with each other and possibly creating almost zero energy to spool up the turbine. This would be the extreme case where the pressure/sound waves from one cylinder would travel with pressure/sound waves from another cylinder, and would follow 90 degree out of phase. The addition of both of these waves would create a net gain of zero, since they cancel each other out.
There is alot more to creating a equal length manifold than just tuning the pressure/sound waves since they are changing with rpm. The length of the runner of the manifold must be taken into consideration as well. The longer runner will enduce a higher pressure to a certain point, but energy will be lost with heat loss. Material selection such as 8 gauge 304 stainless aids in creating a adiabatic (no heat transfer) boundary to a certain extent in the runner design. This insulating effect of the thicker gauge steel allows to retain the energy (heat) to aid in spool up time, as well as keeping the medium (exhaust gas) high heat to aid in the pressure/sound wave propagation since the speed of sound is directly related towards temperature (higher heat, faster travel).
There is even more to manifold design including exhaust scavenging effects of a properly designed manifold to a certain extent. This uses the vacuum between pressure waves to clean the residual out of the combustion chamber. A fresher, denser charge mixture is drawn into the combustion chamber allowing for more work/heat transfer to occur. Greater work=Greater efficiency=Greater torque=Greater horsepower.
To date the most power this shop has made out of a V8 is right at 1000hp, this guys are cracking us up. Please discuss
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Re: so it seems T1, fullrace, and the rest of us are ripping people off
Not to sound stuck up, but as a whole, the Honda community (at least the stuff we deal with) is pretty advanced.
Look at the power/liter we average and you'll find that we're doing very good compared to most domestic stuff.
You have to keep in mind, our 'hot rod' alcohol motors are more or less the equivalent of a pro mod motor, just much smaller.
Then step back and look at how similar our 'street' gas motors are to those 'hot rod' motors.
Ask any of those guys if they'd put a 'log manifold' on a high hp n/a engine. Then ask them why it's any different on a turbo engine...
Look at the power/liter we average and you'll find that we're doing very good compared to most domestic stuff.
You have to keep in mind, our 'hot rod' alcohol motors are more or less the equivalent of a pro mod motor, just much smaller.
Then step back and look at how similar our 'street' gas motors are to those 'hot rod' motors.
Ask any of those guys if they'd put a 'log manifold' on a high hp n/a engine. Then ask them why it's any different on a turbo engine...
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From: Home of the fastest Hondas in the 417 area since, 1997, usa
Re: so it seems T1, fullrace, and the rest of us are ripping people off
Not to sound stuck up, but as a whole, the Honda community (at least the stuff we deal with) is pretty advanced.
Look at the power/liter we average and you'll find that we're doing very good compared to most domestic stuff.
You have to keep in mind, our 'hot rod' alcohol motors are more or less the equivalent of a pro mod motor, just much smaller.
Then step back and look at how similar our 'street' gas motors are to those 'hot rod' motors.
Ask any of those guys if they'd put a 'log manifold' on a high hp n/a engine. Then ask them why it's any different on a turbo engine...
Look at the power/liter we average and you'll find that we're doing very good compared to most domestic stuff.
You have to keep in mind, our 'hot rod' alcohol motors are more or less the equivalent of a pro mod motor, just much smaller.
Then step back and look at how similar our 'street' gas motors are to those 'hot rod' motors.
Ask any of those guys if they'd put a 'log manifold' on a high hp n/a engine. Then ask them why it's any different on a turbo engine...
I also asked "Do you know what the pressure ratio between intake and turbo manifold is suppose to be once you start making 5hp per cubic inch and above on a turbo engine?"
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From: Zionsville, IN, U.S.A.
Re: so it seems T1, fullrace, and the rest of us are ripping people off
Prehistoric thinking....haha.
I'll be honest, I have been doing a lot of research as far as building a boosted V8, for my Outlaw 10.5 Subaru project, and it's crazy how little the guys know that are running this stuff. When I was at PRI, I was trying to pick the brains of some of the big powered V8 turbo'd guys and they really didn't know all that much. I wasn't wanting to build a big low RPM motor, I wanted to build a SBC to make around 1500whp and buzz the **** out it. I didn't think that was much to ask saying that I easily made over 700whp with my H22 years and years ago on a tiny turbo. But these guys say if you want to make that much power, get a bigger motor?? haha.
Is this new to the V8 world or something?
I'll be honest, I have been doing a lot of research as far as building a boosted V8, for my Outlaw 10.5 Subaru project, and it's crazy how little the guys know that are running this stuff. When I was at PRI, I was trying to pick the brains of some of the big powered V8 turbo'd guys and they really didn't know all that much. I wasn't wanting to build a big low RPM motor, I wanted to build a SBC to make around 1500whp and buzz the **** out it. I didn't think that was much to ask saying that I easily made over 700whp with my H22 years and years ago on a tiny turbo. But these guys say if you want to make that much power, get a bigger motor?? haha.
Is this new to the V8 world or something?
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From: WV
Re: so it seems T1, fullrace, and the rest of us are ripping people off
You guys aren't thinking the way big block guys think.
They want more power, they up the displacement...they didn't have to squeeze every last once of power out of the motor b/c they had so much to play with from the beginning.
We on the other hand have to make the most of every Liter we have which has helped us learn quicker/faster than alot of v8 guys.
Each to their own.
They want more power, they up the displacement...they didn't have to squeeze every last once of power out of the motor b/c they had so much to play with from the beginning.
We on the other hand have to make the most of every Liter we have which has helped us learn quicker/faster than alot of v8 guys.
Each to their own.
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Re: so it seems T1, fullrace, and the rest of us are ripping people off
i dont think the turbo thing is new, its the turbo + efi that is new to them. there are LOTS of blow thru carbs in my area, running some decent numbers.
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From: Zionsville, IN, U.S.A.
Re: so it seems T1, fullrace, and the rest of us are ripping people off
I guess if we had the aftermarket support the V8 guys did, we wouldn't need to go elsewhere for HP, just get ya a big motor. I mean you can order any size V8 you want. You need a 800 CI motor, you got it. Most of the big powered V8 guys don't utilize ANY stock parts....aftermarket block, heads, crank, etc. We usually utilize stock heads/block (modified) stock cranks, a lot of time cams, valves, trannies..etc.
When are they going to start making 350 CI 4 cylinder honda blocks?
When are they going to start making 350 CI 4 cylinder honda blocks?
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From: LS T in, CT, USA
Re: so it seems T1, fullrace, and the rest of us are ripping people off
I really dont like how this topic is titled.
As said above since we dont have the "displacement" that the v8's do we have to do what we can to make the most of our smaller engines.
This over time with testing allowed up to properly look at the dynamics of how it works and make it more efficient.
PLUS under the hoods of the v8's there is not much room.. Could you imagine someone trying to do a dual ram horn manifold on a v8.. it would be a very tight squeeze if you could even get it to fit.
I do not believe we are being ripped off, i just think the v8 guys are lagging behind and are trying to find a way for us to start pointing fingers at eachother and rip us apart. The SCC drag scene has already taken a good hit and we NEED to stick together to make sure the sport stays alive.
God this reminds me of the day we took Rota's civic to Lebanon and all the mullet heads where talkin there trash.. Right up until we hit 9's.. Then they understood and were quite impressed.
As said above since we dont have the "displacement" that the v8's do we have to do what we can to make the most of our smaller engines.
This over time with testing allowed up to properly look at the dynamics of how it works and make it more efficient.
PLUS under the hoods of the v8's there is not much room.. Could you imagine someone trying to do a dual ram horn manifold on a v8.. it would be a very tight squeeze if you could even get it to fit.
I do not believe we are being ripped off, i just think the v8 guys are lagging behind and are trying to find a way for us to start pointing fingers at eachother and rip us apart. The SCC drag scene has already taken a good hit and we NEED to stick together to make sure the sport stays alive.
God this reminds me of the day we took Rota's civic to Lebanon and all the mullet heads where talkin there trash.. Right up until we hit 9's.. Then they understood and were quite impressed.
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Re: so it seems T1, fullrace, and the rest of us are ripping people off
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Re: so it seems T1, fullrace, and the rest of us are ripping people off
I actually have a funny story about V8 guys and manifolds.
My local machine shop did a build for a guy, Dual 4088's on a 383...and SSAC looking manifolds that were braced like no tomorrow. The guy was running a FAST EMS, had a test stand there to fire it, the whole nine...I asked him why those manifolds and he told me 'I didn't want to spend all that money..."
IDIOTS lol
My local machine shop did a build for a guy, Dual 4088's on a 383...and SSAC looking manifolds that were braced like no tomorrow. The guy was running a FAST EMS, had a test stand there to fire it, the whole nine...I asked him why those manifolds and he told me 'I didn't want to spend all that money..."
IDIOTS lol
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From: Tolland, CT, USA
Re: so it seems T1, fullrace, and the rest of us are ripping people off
5hp per cubic inch is easy. How many of the V8 guy's are making upwards of 10-12+ plus HP per cubic inch with a OEM crank.
I wouldn't put to much value in what they tell you concerning our small engines. I'd much rather take advice from those that have put there money where there mouth is. Guy's like Tony1, the guy's at Full Race, Miller, Joe Simpson, Cortney Green, Felix Medina, etc.
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Re: so it seems T1, fullrace, and the rest of us are ripping people off
Some of the older guys are hardheaded and stuck in their old ways. Here's a local car 540bbc with twin GT4788R's made 11** at 9psi and spun on the dyno, it's a beast.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hb328V43aAU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hb328V43aAU
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From: Tolland, CT, USA
Re: so it seems T1, fullrace, and the rest of us are ripping people off
That's nice but your missing the point. 1100HP out of 540 cubic inches. That's just over 2HP per cubic inch. That's child's play. Tell them to make 1100whp out of 122 cubic inches. When they do that, they can come talk to us.
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From: Dallas, TX, USA
Re: so it seems T1, fullrace, and the rest of us are ripping people off
Like I said, V8's that are setup nice like our nice setups will make pro mod power. A thousand hp 350+c.i. v8 is nothing to write home about.
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Re: so it seems T1, fullrace, and the rest of us are ripping people off
haha!!! this is awesome! tell Mike Moran that equal length stuff doesnt work on a v8 setup. He is giving the Blown alcohol pro mods guys fits right now.
Look at the top end on this. Try that with a log manifold. haha
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-xwmiiH6uc
Look at the top end on this. Try that with a log manifold. haha
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-xwmiiH6uc
Last edited by uglyasscivic; Jan 21, 2009 at 03:09 PM.
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Re: so it seems T1, fullrace, and the rest of us are ripping people off
Just curious, Maybe Miller can give an idea. What does the fuel curve look like on Paul Majors car? I dont know if they have any dyno time but a plot would be cool to see.
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Re: so it seems T1, fullrace, and the rest of us are ripping people off
Im sorry but the V8 guys have no clue about imports. I get into fights all the time with my dad, that old school crap might work for his 10 sec dart. But not for my 12's Honda...
Isn't there a comparison video between a Log manifold and a Ramhorn manifold? And the power difference was literally astonishing? HP Gain's almost to like 80hp?
Isn't there a comparison video between a Log manifold and a Ramhorn manifold? And the power difference was literally astonishing? HP Gain's almost to like 80hp?
Last edited by JDMBrian; Jan 21, 2009 at 03:16 PM.