Well, as some of you might know I used to be a die hard muscle car fiend. **** HONDAS! ****ING RICERS!

After a lot of aging (ok, maybe not a WHOLE lot.. but enough..), I've experimented with many cars. German cars, American cars, British cars, and even a few Japanese cars.

Anyways, I've come to learn that people buy honda for more than just going fast and trying to be ricey. There's much more to it than that (to me anyhow)

So. I just bought a '98 HX, Si conversion (red exterior and grey interior.. stock d16y5 with vtec-e), Enkei rims, full exhaust thats nice toned but not loud at all (I can cruise at 70 and still think to myself), drop kit, intake, and a nice Grex short throw. Real nice car, drives real nice and handles decent. It's not quick, but this is the first vtec car I've driven where I actually though "oh ****.. theres vtec". I used to think it was a big scheming crock until this car. Around 5500 or so, it comes in like a tamed banshee. And the gas mileage is teh win!

What options do I have for more easy performance mods that dont involve ripping into the motor except maybe a better head gasket or some ****? Whats this I hear about p20 chips to engage vtec at a lower rpm? What about as far as visual goodies? Who makes visual goodies for this car?

I like this car a lot, but I have it for practicallity and GAS MILEAGE. What small things can I do to really step this cars game and looks up cheaply and easily?

Matt

 

get a really good alarm, club, kill switch before adding any goodies.

 

It's got a Viper alarm, but are you implying they are prone to theft??

 

Most stolen car in America.

http://editorial.autos.msn.com/artic...umentid=434545

 

Ouch. Thats pooey.

Would smoked heads/tails look good on my red car with some dark *** tint?

 

in my opinion smoked lights are tacky. i would go with 50/50's on the rear and stock headlights.

 

As far as engine mods. intake mani is reletively quick and easy. but tint the windows for sure. you don't want people window shopping. i agree with egG94 smoked lights are tacky. i'd go with angel eyes w/ euro tails. keep it subtle/simple

 

i disagree about the "window shopping". i like people being able to see into my car. it's clean, nothing of real value left in plain sight. glove box left open with ipod connect hanging out. just my opinion.....what are you hiding in your car? maybe if i break a window i can find out.

 

Now that is sig worthy.

 

dont tint windows quiter when you break it...

 

Whatever u do, dont put a car cover over it. that is the equivalent of putting a steal me sign on your vehicle.

 

Bahaha!! Are you sure you read through what you wrote before posting?

 

truth from experience

1. save your money
2. research
3. THEN BOOST IT!!!


4. Then you will eat stock 1985 305's
fukin muscle head's!!!

5. research some more
6. then go to jfdistributors.com for a complete bottom end
7. Then you will eat heavily modified 305's


all other performance mods are worthless rice

*** the ricer ext. ****, keep it stock

 

It's not ALWAYS the most stolen car in America.

It usually is listed once or twice (diff years) in the top 10, though.

I love to hear the ingenious reasoning behind the conclusion that smoked lights are tacky, yet euro lights on a rice burner aren't.

Though yes, the intake manifold is basically the only all motor swap that's worth doing to a D series engine, though since he has the Y5 (super eco-friendly motor) I wouldn't bother putting anything into it as far as performance goes.

Now, OP, allow me to laugh at you
You, your car doesn't have VTEC, as in "vroom vroom VTEC" - it has VTEC-E, which stands for "economical" - the VTEC you have simply makes it run on 8 valves prior to 2200 or so RPM, it does NOTHING at 5500 RPM except get higher up on the RPM band, hence, more power (with RPM comes power, that's the basis of any internal combustion engine).

People like you give Honda owners everywhere a bad name: "At 5500, the VTEC screams" blah blah blah - The VTEC doesn't scream anything except "Why the hell is this ricer idiot winding me out to the redline? I was built to not really go far past 3500 RPM!!! At 5500 RPM the HX engine hasn't changed since it's engagement of the remaining valves around 2200 or whatever it is RPM.

And this line's a real winner:
"Around 5500 or so, it comes in like a tamed banshee."

A tamed banshee? What is that exactly? Is that like, a pet banshee - no longer has the fire in its eyes? Are they US & CARB approved? . Although I guess if it's VTEC-E you're not really gonna get a screaming banshee out of it .

"It's the first VTEC car I've driven" - no it's not. Sorry bud, but VTEC-E doesn't qualifyas real VTEC, it's meant for higher gas mileage in the lower end, not higher performance in the top end.

"Whats this I hear about p20 chips to engage vtec at a lower rpm?"
It's ricer crap about making regular VTEC engage at lower RPM because they don't know how VTEC actually works so they think dropping it down to 3000 RPM will make their car faster. They're wrong, but that still has nothing to do with you, even though you don't realize how your VTEC-E system works either.

Engaging VTEC lower wouldn't have any positive effects for you since the ECU is tuned to run on 8 valves prior to its engagement, you'd have to get it dyno tuned if you wanted performance on it, then your best bet is to lock it so all 16 valves are always engaged, and even then your head is gonna be so restrictive that your max output won't even be near a Y7.

The only answer for your engine is a new motor, doesn't have to be a K20, but upgrading that Y5 for more performance is like humping a wall for the sexual experience.

I'm sorry if I come off like an ******* (no I'm not), but I'm not sure which annoys me more, the fact that you come in here with all the wrong information, or the fact that nobody in the thread actually picked up on it to help you further & steer you away from the wrong.

EDIT:
PS: What you could do instead of buying an entire new engine is swap a D16Y8 head on it. Then you'd have real VTEC and a lot better air flow. This would allow for more upgrades, both naturally aspirated, and of forced induction type. Though the term "boost or swap" really does kind of apply for budgeted D series builds, so in the end you'll still be limited, but nowhere near as much as a Y5 is limiting you.

Also, you can put a Y8 trans on it, shorter gearing means better acceleration, A LOT better than that Y5 trans which is Honda's pride and joy as far as economy transmissions go from '96-'00 excluding the CVT. You'll lose a bit of fuel mileage on the highway, not a lot by any means, but some. Might not even be noticeable.

 

syndacate if you took time to read you'd notice its an si conversion. it is real vtec. 5500 rpm engagement. if its as i assume, a motor from the 99, 2000ish era civic si.

and how is the d16y8 a "real" vtec? my car has said motor. single cam. not quite as "vtecy" as a dual cam

 

Are you just trying to get under my skin and failing miserably, or are you seriously this stupid?

First off, I apologize, I must have missed it, three times in a row when I read the entire thrad I must have missed it - he said he has an si conversion, but he also says it has the stock Y5 with VTEC-E. I don't know what the hell he was talking about by "having an Si conversion" - but the way he worded it, I don't think it was the motor. He probably has an Si front end conversion.

That'd be similar to me telling you:
Me: "I have a '97 Integra GSR conversion on my car"
You: "Oh yeah, how u liking the power of the B18?"
Me: "No, I have the conversion, I still have my stock D16Y8"

What?

And as for how the D16Y8 has "real" VTEC opposed to the D16Y5?

The D16Y5 has VTEC-E, economical VTEC made to use half the valves below ~2200 RPM. By "real" VTEC I meant regular VTEC, as in the kind that locks the rockers at ~4800 RPM. I apologize that the "real" in there confused you, but I'm surrounded by so many ricers that I feel I must specify.

EDIT (for clarification sake, god knows you'll need it):
I don't mean "real" as in the "feel" of VTEC, I mean he has economical VTEC which doesn't make a damn crossover at 5000 RPM like he so humbly believes.

 

i understand the "real vtec" lol. im not THAT dumb. it appears i misread and not you. i didnt see him clarify engine type after stating the si conversion. i appologize. but you should try to be nicer about your wording. though it is helpful, if harsh.

 

I'm mean to everybody, he/you shouldn't take it personally. I try to be nice, but that lasts like a day...tops? Then somebody does something stupid, which pisses me off, and I go off on them - be it online or in real life. It's a little known fact around H-T that everything I type should be taken with a grain of salt (and bias).

True, this depends on his budget. I mean a K20 would be ideal - but it depends how much he has to fork over for this little gig.

Throwing the Y8 head on it is a cheap alternative which can at least put him in the league of "upgradable D series" - the Y5 as it stands in stock form is useless to try and upgrade, IMO. At least with the Y8 it'll have more room to breathe leaving potential for more power, especially if he later decides to boost on stock internals.

Though it's very budget oriented, and it also depends on how he wants to spend his money, be it bling or power - i know people (who I believe to be idiots) who spend all their pay on aesthetics upgrades, others, who spend all their money on performance. It all depends on if he wants a clean car running slow, or a pile of **** running fast - or the more likely area of somewhere in the middle which is where most people seem to fall.

So I guess one can ask:
A) What's your budget to work with?
B) Do you care more about bling, or power?

I say throwing the Y8 head on there will at least amp your game to the level of the rest of D series('ers). It may not be an F20 but at least he'll have regular, power giving VTEC (instead of the pretty damn useless VTEC-E he has now) and a normal flowing head (well, normal for a D series).

EDIT:
You'd be surprised what a Y8 head, Y8 trans, and a P2P (EX ECU) ECU can accomplish. Won't be a 10 second car, but it'll be a very noticeable difference.

 

as i typed that i realized i was mistaken again. the lack of a second cam doesnt interfere with vtec's control over exhaust valves. i thought about it, and realized it wasn't possible for it NOT to affect it, when the same camshaft that affects intake valves also houses lobes for exhaust. its both or neither. lol. second cams just make space for optimal spark plug placement in the center of the combustion chamber, and optimally placed intake/exhaust ports. but theres a payoff both ways. dohc is heavier and loses a little torque down low because of its heavier valve components (twice as much) but is more effective up high, and generally allows a dual cam engine to rev higher.

not as much of a reason to have dohc now that you think about it..

its whole purpose was multi-valve heads. but its doable with a sohc engine. so there isnt much payoff there, just some.

 

take your motor out,
take it apart.
remove head, run out go get a d16z6 head $100, d16y8 intake manifold, get ycp coated viatra pistons pressed onto TT rods, clearance block. chipped p28 ecu running uberdata (freeware), burn eeproms. port match im to head, get a 60MM b series tb bolt on. get a cheap turbo manifold, and a turbo off of a dsm preferably a tdo4h, but a t25 is not bad.
pretty much the 3+ years ago way to do it.


all for just under $1000 that these ricers spend to get exhuasts, ebay intakes and chrome lights and what not.

 

welcome over to the dark side.. muahahhaha!! anyways glad that owning and driving a honda changed your mind about Hondas.. most muscle heads I know are so bias that even after driving a fast modified honda, they still cant seem to admit that they like it :] same goes for people who own other imports like sti, evos, and dont get me started on 240 owners.... well if I were you try and get rid of the d16y5 motor as what Syndacate says if you want performance wihtout breaking the bank then upgrade to y8 head, y8 tranny, and the p2p ecu.. but if you really want to experience great vtec which is really noticable then upgrade to a B series. As for looks I would say stick to stock trim.. as in stock headlights, bumper, etc.. maybe a nice front lip, rota rims 15", and foglights.

 

While it's not possible for VTEC to be affected, it IS indeed possible for adjusting the timing separately on a DOHC, which you cannot do on a SOHC, this can usually make for a more precise tune, but if it's stock, it matters none. The weight of its valve components matter very little in the grand realm of things - it'll pull harder than a D series throughout the entire power band. They can rev the same though, valve train permitting.

He may not have a reason to go DOHC for the reason listed, but they are (generally) a more powerful engine. I don't believe there's any USDM D series engines which top any USDM B series engines, so yeah, it may not be because of tuning each cam individually, but they're more powerful in general, mostly due to their displacement, better flow, and higher compression.

There is monster SOHC's like the F series, but it's still a brute when it comes to force. Though that's a different ball game due to its displacement contributions.

He simply needs to decide what he wants to do, and how much cash he can allocate towards this project, if he only has a little and only wants a little power, a Y8 head may be all he needs, or he could want a fully boosted K making 500whp - and have the cash to support it.

So for now, his original question was (after I destroyed his P20 suggestion, lord knows we don't need more guys running around here with bullshit chipped ECU's dropping the VTEC engagement pointl):
Y8 head, Y8 trans, that's about it. You can try to put the Y8 intake manifold on it and that'll do a little bit of good, but won't really do anything. I'm assuming that if you dont' want to rip into the motor - so you don't want to swap, either. So that whole conversation is out of the way for now. The Y5 in its stock form is basically useless for performance, so throw a Y8 head on it, then you have some options including a better flowing intake manifold, a better cam, or boost.

Now I hear the bed calling my name (actually it's my lovey dovey calling me, not the bed, but you get the idea) so I am going to go for the night, good luck with whatever you decide to do. G'night.

 

Ya I actually researched for a few hours after making this post yesterday. I am just gonna do some body mods and whatnot, and keep it stock. This is a lean-burn car that gets nearly 45mpg highway so I'm not gonna touch it. I'm not gonna do any ricer exterior ****, just like maybe angel lights, some tint, and maybe fresh paint (the paint on it isn't amazing or anything.) Whats your u/n on cz28?

I've done some reading up on this vtec-e yesterday; it's some cool **** man. But if that isn't vtec at 5200 or 5500 or something, why does the car all of a sudden make a louder noise and go to redline quicker? I've never bought into the vtec hype until I felt that.

How do I give honda owners a bad name? I know I have one of the slowest pieces of Machinery on planet earth, how could I possible give it a worse name? I drive it because 30+ mpg city and 40-45mpg highway is rather enticing.

So even on regular vtec's, those p20 chips are bullshit and dont work like people think??

I've also read up on tranny swaps, but i would lose mpg doing that.. and since the whole basis of this car is for mpg, I'm not gonna mess with it. But thanks anyways.



Ya man I really like this car. And my del sol si. It just feels so tight and quality built, and everything about it is just nice. It's a great car.. And I've NEVER driven a car that could hold a route-44 slushy from Sonic and STILL have room to go! Even the placement of everthing in the car is excellent and comfortable (except that the short shifter I have to move quite a bit to reach it.. kinda gay, but the shifts are real nice and crisp.). I used to be extremely biased about hondas too, but there is more to life than having a loud rumbling v8 that halls ***. Granted, GM has the gas mileage issue tackled rather well with their v8's, it just doesn't fit the bill. The gas mileage, quality, handling, braking, and overall cruising capablities of my hondas are great.. and I can hear myself think going 70mpg, while getting 40mpg or better. The car has Si body parts/lights, rear wing, and interior, and used to have rota 15's, but now has 15" enkei's. It looks pretty nice and it's not ridiculous. Where and what kind of lip options do I have for the car? Can I get a real lip for the car above the rear glass?
Like I previously said, I'm keeping the car mechanically stock. I'm just gonna make it a bit better looking and clean it up.

Thank for the input brother, but after researching, I'm gonna leave my highly efficient vtec-e lean burn car alone except for visuals. I'm more after the gas mileage not speed.

 

Look at the dynometer chart of any 4 cylinder engine, be it Honda, VTEC, no-VTEC, whatever...okay, ALMOST any 4 cylinder engine (ie. the CRV is geared (metaphorically not physically) for torque, so that's excluded) - they don't run like a big block chevy where it's going to go up a total of 30hp from 1000 RPM to 5500 RPM. The equation for horsepower is (torque*RPM) / 5252, that means the you either need more RPM, or more torque to make horsepower, now seeing as a standard civic engine is 1.6L SOHC torque is pretty much out of the picture, which only leaves RPM - which goes up - to about 7200 on a D16Z6. Then there's something called the power band - this is where the engine "pulls" - it's typically around 3-3.5k-6.8k. So what is this "hard pull" you feel at 5500 RPM with the engine note changing? That's a 4 cylinder winding out it's power band, plain and simple. Yes, the engine is making more power, but only for the reason stated above - the RPM is going up (and the torque, but only minimally). So the noise? Just a 4 cylinder really digging hard into its power band.

PS:
Everything I told you about VTEC is factual - so please don't try to attack me saying "Oh yea? Then why does this happen!?" - your engine, if it is a D16Y5 doesn't have VTEC, it has VTEC-E, and it engages at around 2200 RPM, NOT 4800-5k. This is NOT "my opinion" - it's the actual workings of a VTEC system. Obviously your knowledge of low displacement four cylinders is VERY limited - but you are getting hit by the placebo effect of knowing your engine has some sort of VTEC - the VTEC-E doesn't do anything for power (past 2200 RPM anyway), but since you "know" it has VTEC, it HAS to be pulling harder around 5500 RPM. *sigh* It's a power band, not VTEC, accept it or continue to walk around like the rest of the clueless idiots that own civics and give their drivers a bad name. It's logic like that 'tis why a lot of american owners hate imports, and you guys just keep amplifying it by coming it bragging about your VTEC-E when it's not actually doing what you think it's doing.

I had a guy test drive my car once, when I had my '95 EX with a Z6 (VTEC). He said he could really feel VTEC kicking in. He also said he didn't bring it above 4000 RPM. This is the logic that completely kills us as Honda owners. Does a car entering its power band feel similar to D series VTEC? Yes. Is it the same thing? Absolutely not.

Because you come in here blabbing about "The VTEC kicking in at 5500 RPM" - the "tamed banshee", etc. When there is no "VTEC kicking in at 5500 RPM", and a stock HX isn't exactly what I'd call a banshee to begin with. Know your system before bragging about it. In this case, you bragged about something that wasn't even happening. That's how. Just know your car before talking about it.

No, the ECU uses readings from a variety of sensors including your TPS (throttle positioning sensor) to decide where to engage VTEC optimally, the range is small though, but I do believe the minimum for a Y8 motor is 4800 RPM, and if you're really light on the throttle, may not kick in until 500 or 1000 RPM later. What people don't understand is how VTEC works, which is how they're tricked into this bullshit.

With the technical aspects aside, VTEC works by keeping the valves to the combustion chamber open longer. This allows more air (and in turn, more fuel) to get into the combustion chamber, allowing for more power. This is great if you have floods of air coming in (implying higher RPM), this helps the engine run more optimally by using all the air it can for combustion. I guess you can say a VTEC engine has 2 "modes" - low RPM, and high RPM. The high RPM uses more air/fuel to make more power, since your engine is drawing a harder vacuum, you will have more air - all VTEC does is add the fuel and put it all together to make more power.

So if you take into account all that, then you "drop" VTEC by about 1000 or 1300 RPM, it's keeping the valves open longer yet there's no air (and in turn no fuel) to fill up the combustion chambers, since the RPM is so low, it's simply not pulling enough in. Now obviously this is completely different if you're running a boosted app, as it's FORCING air in, but even then, the VTEC engagement point should be only lowered a bit.

I can give you a good example, you said you've used a lot of American Muscle cars - then one thing you def. know of in terms of making power is upgrading the camshaft - with the camshaft you get, it has a higher profile, which allows more air, now if you've ever built a drag muscle car, you'd know, that when you have one of these cams in, with a single plane manifold, you tend to idle around 2200 RPM just to keep from stalling out. WHY? - Same reason - higher lobes are better for higher RPM power, that's why these cars run and make power to 7000 or so, instead of dying at 5500 like they do stock. The same applies to your Honda, but I guess you can say it has "both" - as the camshaft does indeed have a low RPM lobe, and a high RPM lobe (VTEC lobe).

Lowering VTEC on a stock naturally aspirated app doesn't do anything except kill your low/mid range power by kicking in a cam lobe designed for high RPM at low RPM, this makes the engine bog and struggle. It's a common fu8k up that ricers do all the time with their VAFC on a stock car. Usually leads to shorter engine life, always leads to slower cars.

Yeah, the 5sp manual in the Y5 is one of the tallest transmissions that Honda makes, completely designed for highway fuel economy. Though power is a trading game, you trade fuel mileage for horsepower, usually. Though with my stock Y8 I still get 36-38 with the AC on (40-42) with it off on the highway and high 20's around town (I have quite a heavy foot, so my town mileage is gonna be ****.

So you don't lose that much. Though you do lose some.

As for looks, I know nothing. I keep my cars 100% (or near 100%) stock in terms of appearance. I'm sure there's tons of lips and duck bill and visors and all sorts of crap you can decorate your car with - I see it too often in this tech forum.

Smart move.

If you're in it for the gas mileage and not the power, keep it exactly the way it is.

 

yes i agree. some people advance intake timing and retard exhaust timing.

truth