Hello All,
Thanks for being here for folks !!

I have a 1994 Accord EX-R with a F22B1 2.2 VTEC. It runs great but it blows blue smoke for about the first minute upon startup when it's cold. I have searched high and low and the common thread has been to do Valve Stem Seals. I had them done and still it smokes the same or possibly a bit worse. I am running 10W-30 Penzoil high mileage oil and was told to switch to 5w-30 and will do this on the next oil change but I can't imagine that making that significant a difference.

The blue smoke pours out for about the first minute whether it be parked warming up or being driven a few blocks. The car has ~250,000 Kms (150,000 Miles) but I keep reading that I should be able to get tons more life out of it. From what I can tell it was owned by a guy that just commuted with it and it never got ran hard.

Any other thoughts would sure be appreciated.

Thanks
FishyBC

 

you may need an engine overhaul.....your oil is getting into the exaust this could be caused by a malfunctioning valve due to the hydraulic lifters.....it could be a number of problems....does it also blow blue smoke at high RPM?

 

replace your valve seals if its on start up only

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bseriescrxsi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you may need an engine overhaul.....your oil is getting into the exaust this could be caused by a malfunctioning valve due to the hydraulic lifters.....it could be a number of problems....does it also blow blue smoke at high RPM?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hydraulic what?

Have you had the replaced valve seals checked to make sure that they are sealing properly?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bseriescrxsi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...your oil is getting into the exaust this could be caused by a malfunctioning valve due to the hydraulic lifters...</TD></TR></TABLE>

uh... like ghost eluded to, there are no hydraulic lifters in this engine.

FishyBC
pull the exhaust manifold away from the head and look into the exhaust ports. you should be able to see if there is any oil still leaking into there.
my friends GSR engine in his hatch was blowing blue smoke at start-up and sure enough 5 out of 8 exhaust valve stem seals were leaking and it was very visible after pulling the exhaust manifold.

 

No hydraulic lifters and you may want to fix your sig too. It is known as VTEC. No hyphen.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bseriescrxsi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
-the search button exists and is in RED for a reason
-if you have a swap question, what kinda car did you put it IN
-its V-TEC not VTECH <FONT COLOR="darkred"> no actually it is <FONT SIZE="2">VTEC</FONT></FONT>
-its a CHECK ENGINE LIGHT not "the yellow light" <FONT COLOR="darkred">aka a <FONT SIZE="2">CEL</FONT></FONT></TD></TR></TABLE>

 

Have a friend follow you on the highway and watch for smoke during several different driving styles.
Accellerating
Deccellerating
Transition (speeding up after slowing down)

If you see smoke while doing any of these, that would be piston rings.

P

 

Not trying to hijack here but mine does the same thing kinda. Ive been a mechanic for 15 years, master certified for 10 and will admit that I dont know the specifics on hondas but I know what the typical valve seal startup puff looks like. Mines a little different. 90 f22a1 270,000 usually no smoke on startup. colder mornings-40-50 or less it will occationally smoke like a train. I mean cant see behind me bad. But, its not right at startup. When it does it its usually 15-20 seconds after starting it will be fine then come on real fast and heavy. Unhealthy amounts of smoke for 30 sec to a min then just that like that it will quit. Ive seen bed rings that smoke all the time and bad valve seals that smoke on start up but not like this and not this bad. I cleaned the pcv valve out with brake cleaner a while back and it didnt do it for a while. started doing it a month ago and I replaced the pcv valve. Still doing it occationally. It runs way to good to have internal problems but im out of ideas.
Thanks
Nick

 

cautrell05:
Sounds like you've got an oil control ring either stuck in it's groove or it's lost tension.
I've used GM Top Cylinder Cleaner to loosen stuck rings in the past.
It was originally used to de-carbon combustion chambers.
I've used it a "little" differently.
Pull the plugs.
Pour equal amouts of GM Top Cylinder Cleaner into each cylinder.
Let it sit for as long as you can, letting the stuff work. (5 to 6 hours should do it)
Put a shop rag over the valve cover and crank the engine over without the plugs installed (it's gonna spray)
Check the oil level in the crankcase. If it now shows overfilled, perform oil change.
Reinstall the spark plugs and start the engine.

It IS going to smoke at first (as the residual burns off), but it should clear out quickly.
Give it a good road test and check for the original condition again in the am.

P

 

cautrell05

That is exactly the same behavior as mine. After having the valve stem seals done it smokes worse but exactly as you described.

P_Adams

My mechanic suggested that I find something that would clean carbon off the rings but didn't have anything to recommend. I read about Seafoam on the net and it sounds like a possible choice but you sound like you know what you're talking about and so I'm going to go with your suggestion. If it doesn't work, I don't have much to lose as it's way too embarrassing to vanish in the cloud that spews for about 30 secs to a minute as cautrell05 suggested. Otherwise it runs like a champ.

Thanks to you both and I'll go get me some GM Top Cylinder Cleaner. With a VTEC, how difficult is it to do this ? I haven't pulled the plugs on mine yet.

Thank again and I'll post how it works out. I owe ya both if it works out. This thing runs WAY too good to think that the engine is toast !

I'll let you know.
FishyBC

 

There is little difference between the VTEC versions and the non VTEC versions (as far as this goes).
The Spark plugs line up along the rear of the valve cover on one. and line up along the front of the valve cover on the other.

Same proceedure.

P

 

I found some of that GM Top Cylinder cleaner you mentioned. I was reading and the Oil Control Ring is the bottom ring on the piston. I suspect that I should take the plug lead off, remove the spark plug and then have a funnel that reaches right down into the spark plug chamber ? No sure how far that is but it has those tubes. Can I just pour it into the tubes at the top of them or do I need to get more specifically into the chamber ?

Any thoughts would be appreciated but I'll give it a try tomorrow and we'll see how it goes. Fingers Crossed and much appreciated

FishyBC

 

You've got it. I've used a small plastic funnel and a length of hose from time to time, but slowly pouring it in works ok too.
There shouldn't be any debtis in the spark plug tubes to worry about (they're sealed by the spark plug boot)

P

 

I have a 91 LX and it smokes on cold start up and at high RPM's, so would this fix work for me? Ive heard it could be my rings or my PCV valve. Its a non VTECH so would pouring the GM Top Cylinder Cleaner into the spark plug holes still work for me?

 

It could be well worth it to try.

What's the most it will cost you?
A can of GM Top Cylinder Cleaner and some of your time.

P

 

A mechanic I talked to not too long ago suggested that cleaning the combustion chamber/ rings could actually make the problem worse by removing any build up on the ring(s) that isn't sitting right, there by letting more oil sneak past.

 

also, how much cleaner do you suggest adding to each cylinder?

 

Eg48:
I would seriously question the depth of this "Mechanics'" knowledge, and I'd certainly question it here.
The only reason a ring "wouldn't be sitting right" would be because of two (2) reasons:
!) The very Cr**p he maintains keeps it sealed.
2) Broken ring lands

The way a rings works is by sealing itself against it's adjacent surfaces ie:
Cylinder Walls and it's Piston Ring Lands (grooves)

This sealing action is from the application of combustion gasses both forcing the ring down against it's land, and against the cylinder wall.
Thru the break-in proceedure the rings literly polish themselves to conform to the cylinder wall.
These rings (oil control included) must remain free to move in their glooves, to remain sealed against the cylinder wall dispite any Piston movement
If any crud or varnish should build up in the grooves, the ring would remain retracted and would not be able to maintain a seal. Thus either compression or oil control loss.

If your ring lands are Sooo bad as to need crud and varnish to seal a ring, you've talked yourself into an engine overhaul.

find yourself another tech.

P

 

One can divided four (4) ways

 

lol ok ok i get it How about Gunk Engine Flush? you add it to the oil, idle for about 5-10 minutes, change your oil, and its supposed to clean up any build up in the rings and such. worth a shot or should i just skip to P_Adams suggestion of GM top cylinder cleaner right through the spark plug holes?

 

Gunk engine Flush is much like Rislone. Those products work to break down sludge (engine oil).
You're welcome to try it

P

 

Update:

GM didn't have any GM Top Cylinder cleaner in stock this weekend and wanted to try something so I went with Seafoam.

I had heard good things about it. I put 1/3 bottle in the crankcase, 1/3 in the fuel tank with about 3 gallons of fuel left in it and pulled a vacuum line going to the throttle body and had the hose suck the other 1/3rd of bottle. I shut the engine off immediately after it had sucked the seaform in. I let it sit for 12 mins and started it up. WOW, that's alot of smoke !!! It burned white smoke for about 2 or 3 minutes. I backed out of the driveway and took it for a run. I revved the engine up to about 5 grand a couple times once it was fully warmed up and it felt different, better. I went home, drained the oil and it was black as soot (carbon). I hoped that it might have done the job but the following morning when I started her up and about 10 seconds later, that old familiar smoke started pouring out again for about 30 seconds to a minute just like before. It definitely runs better now with no hesitation on pulling away from a dead stop anymore but it still needs to be "desmokified".

I put Rislone engine treatment in with the oil cause I figured it can't hurt. I will however be getting some GM Top Cylinder Cleaner later this week though. I think it will be a week before I can do it but we'll see if there's time on Saturday since as you mentioned, it needs 5 or 6 hours to do it's thing.

I'm guessing that if that doesn't work, the Oil Control Ring has lost it's ability to do it's job ? Anyhow, thanks again for getting me going on this and we'll see how the GM stuff works and I'll report back.

FishyBC

 

hmmm thats all very good to know. with the rislone stuff, do you add it, run the car for a bit and drain it...or do you keep it in the oil for a full oil change (3000 kms)

 

It says that you can run it with your regular oil change. Because it's a detergent, you should probably not try to get 3000 miles out of the oil change. I'm going to run it for a maximum of 2 weeks and then do what P_Adams suggests. Crofton eh ! I'm in Abbotsford.

 

yeah be that as it may be, im headed over to long beach for the weekend, so ill put some in, road trip it, then do an oil change when i get back. that'll end up being around 500kms. ill use the Gunk Motor Flush after that to clean it all out.