Which would have more grip?
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.likes trains
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From: Outer Space
Which would have more grip?
I'll probably get flamed for this, but I thought it was worth a try to ask here. My buddy, and I were having a friendly debate on which tires would have more grip.
Hooiser R3
205/45/16
or
Falken 615
295/xx/18
He believes the Hooiser will have more grip, because of the tire compound. I believe the falkens will have more grip, because there's more tire = more contact patch.
uts flame suit: 
back to doing hw
Hooiser R3
205/45/16
or
Falken 615
295/xx/18
He believes the Hooiser will have more grip, because of the tire compound. I believe the falkens will have more grip, because there's more tire = more contact patch.
uts flame suit: back to doing hw
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2004
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From: Cerritos, CA, USA
Re: Which would have more grip? (.one lane)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .one lane »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'll probably get flamed for this, but I thought it was worth a try to ask here. My buddy, and I were having a friendly debate on which tires would have more grip.
Hooiser R3
205/45/16
or
Falken 615
295/xx/18
He believes the Hooiser will have more grip, because of the tire compound. I believe the falkens will have more grip, because there's more tire = more contact patch.
uts flame suit:
back to doing hw</TD></TR></TABLE>
That's a very difficult question to answer because of a couple of factors. Sure, the R3 compound is stickier than the RT-615 for the same size tire. However, by changing the shape of the tire contact patch to a wider but shorter area in the case of the 295, you will possibly get more overall grip from the less sticky 615. The contact patch area will be the same for both tires, only the shape will be different. It will depend upon the weight or load acting on the tire at a given tire temperature. The heavier the load, the better the 295 will perform due to the mechanical grip phenomena. That is, the tire fills in the asperities in the asphalt more for a larger vertical load up to a point where the tire completely fills in the asperities. The 205 will do the same, but the point where the tire fills in the asperities will occur at a lower vertical load. If you looked at a graph showing the grip verses vertical load, you will notice the 205 R3 curve is steeper and relatively linear for a good portion of the curve and then it begins become less steep but it will always be an increasing function (i.e. you will always get a positive increment of grip for a given increment increase in vertical load).
The 295 RT-615 curve will start out less steep than the 205 R3 curve and will continue to increase beyond where the R3 starts to fall off. The 295 curve will eventually show the same behavior as the R3, but by this point the level of grip has surpassed the R3 grip level.
Also, the 205 R3 will heat up much faster for the same given car weight, and so this will also give the nod to the 295 RT-615.
Hooiser R3
205/45/16
or
Falken 615
295/xx/18
He believes the Hooiser will have more grip, because of the tire compound. I believe the falkens will have more grip, because there's more tire = more contact patch.
uts flame suit: back to doing hw
</TD></TR></TABLE>That's a very difficult question to answer because of a couple of factors. Sure, the R3 compound is stickier than the RT-615 for the same size tire. However, by changing the shape of the tire contact patch to a wider but shorter area in the case of the 295, you will possibly get more overall grip from the less sticky 615. The contact patch area will be the same for both tires, only the shape will be different. It will depend upon the weight or load acting on the tire at a given tire temperature. The heavier the load, the better the 295 will perform due to the mechanical grip phenomena. That is, the tire fills in the asperities in the asphalt more for a larger vertical load up to a point where the tire completely fills in the asperities. The 205 will do the same, but the point where the tire fills in the asperities will occur at a lower vertical load. If you looked at a graph showing the grip verses vertical load, you will notice the 205 R3 curve is steeper and relatively linear for a good portion of the curve and then it begins become less steep but it will always be an increasing function (i.e. you will always get a positive increment of grip for a given increment increase in vertical load).
The 295 RT-615 curve will start out less steep than the 205 R3 curve and will continue to increase beyond where the R3 starts to fall off. The 295 curve will eventually show the same behavior as the R3, but by this point the level of grip has surpassed the R3 grip level.
Also, the 205 R3 will heat up much faster for the same given car weight, and so this will also give the nod to the 295 RT-615.
Joined: May 2002
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From: banned NC
Re: Which would have more grip? (Johnny Mac)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Johnny Mac »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
If you looked at a graph showing the grip verses vertical load, you will notice the 205 R3 curve is steeper and relatively linear for a good portion of the curve and then it begins become less steep but it will always be an increasing function (i.e. you will always get a positive increment of grip for a given increment increase in vertical load).
</TD></TR></TABLE>
all lat force v load charts look this way, and do you actually have the graphs of both tires? because this question could definitely not be answered without them. you must also include camber and slip, because the two will be best at different geometry setups.
so to answer the ? you cant without real data.
If you looked at a graph showing the grip verses vertical load, you will notice the 205 R3 curve is steeper and relatively linear for a good portion of the curve and then it begins become less steep but it will always be an increasing function (i.e. you will always get a positive increment of grip for a given increment increase in vertical load).
</TD></TR></TABLE>
all lat force v load charts look this way, and do you actually have the graphs of both tires? because this question could definitely not be answered without them. you must also include camber and slip, because the two will be best at different geometry setups.
so to answer the ? you cant without real data.
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 10,399
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From: Chicagoland, IL
Re: Which would have more grip? (Johnny Mac)
Might depend on how much the car weighs too. Is this a Civic or a Corvette?
It's a bit of a silly question. It's not a decision most of us would have to deal with. I'd go with brand new 295 Hoosiers.
It's a bit of a silly question. It's not a decision most of us would have to deal with. I'd go with brand new 295 Hoosiers.
Thread Starter
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From: Outer Space
Re: Which would have more grip? (Stinkycheezmonky)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Stinkycheezmonky »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I was thinking the same thing. 5-6 year old R-comp = dud.</TD></TR></TABLE>
That's what I thought until I ran them a couple of months back. Still had grip I only listed those since I still had them.
I'll pick up another set since the r3 are ancient and done for.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris F »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Might depend on how much the car weighs too. Is this a Civic or a Corvette?
It's a bit of a silly question. It's not a decision most of us would have to deal with. I'd go with brand new 295 Hoosiers. </TD></TR></TABLE>
The 295 are on a e36 m3, and the 205 are on a wrx wagon. So I guess it came down to which would have more grip, awd with narrow race tires or rwd with wide street tires. I know it's impossible to predict without any actual data, but I'm just looking for people's opinion.
He, and I will eventually figure out which would have more grip
That's what I thought until I ran them a couple of months back. Still had grip
I only listed those since I still had them. I'll pick up another set since the r3 are ancient and done for.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris F »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Might depend on how much the car weighs too. Is this a Civic or a Corvette?
It's a bit of a silly question. It's not a decision most of us would have to deal with. I'd go with brand new 295 Hoosiers. </TD></TR></TABLE>
The 295 are on a e36 m3, and the 205 are on a wrx wagon. So I guess it came down to which would have more grip, awd with narrow race tires or rwd with wide street tires. I know it's impossible to predict without any actual data, but I'm just looking for people's opinion.
He, and I will eventually figure out which would have more grip
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From: Burninating the peasants yo
Re: Which would have more grip? (.one lane)
I also ran R3s last year, and they were awful. Almost new, properly stored, blah blah blah, I have never been so untrusting of a tire's ability as that weekend. Maybe you got lucky...or they were your first R-comps
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From: Chicago
Re: Which would have more grip? (.one lane)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .one lane »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The 295 are on a e36 m3, and the 205 are on a wrx wagon.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I say the M3 will have better grip than the wagon.
Obviously, it's not a fair comparison. And I say that, not just because there are two different cars, but also because you're looking at drastically different tire sizes because of the difference in cars.
When you're talking about different tire models and sizes on the same car, you're rarely looking at treadwidth differences more than 10-20 mm. And the difference between an R compound tire (R6) and a street tire (RT-615) are far, far greater than differences of 10-20 mm in treadwidth, assuming both are reasonably new.
Of course, you can just buy the R compound tires in the wider size, and it's no longer anything to worry about.
I say the M3 will have better grip than the wagon.
Obviously, it's not a fair comparison. And I say that, not just because there are two different cars, but also because you're looking at drastically different tire sizes because of the difference in cars.
When you're talking about different tire models and sizes on the same car, you're rarely looking at treadwidth differences more than 10-20 mm. And the difference between an R compound tire (R6) and a street tire (RT-615) are far, far greater than differences of 10-20 mm in treadwidth, assuming both are reasonably new.
Of course, you can just buy the R compound tires in the wider size, and it's no longer anything to worry about.
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