my question is, are the people that are saying dont get a camber kit just get an alignment, are you guys refering to all lowered cars, i mean even if they are slammed to the ground? just get an alignment?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by eglude &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">my question is, are the people that are saying dont get a camber kit just get an alignment, are you guys refering to all lowered cars, i mean even if they are slammed to the ground? just get an alignment?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yup, just go get an alignment. All of our cars have adjustable toe stock, and toe is what kills tires.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TunerN00b &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Yup, just go get an alignment. All of our cars have adjustable toe stock, and toe is what kills tires.</TD></TR></TABLE>
by all of "our" cars, do you mean like.. 88-current honda civic? etc.. all models? (i ask because I have a 93dx and it's my first 92-95)

 

All depends on the car and what you have done to it. I have a '91 TEG and I be damned when I bought all my suspension stuff and put it on and took my car off the lift i had at least -10* in the rear and a good -6* in the front. Thank god I had the camber kit to correct it, or I would had to change everything back to stock and wait for the lits to come in.

F&F type 2 coilovers
ST F&R sways
Megan rear camber kit
Revo front camber kit
hyper flex master kit bushings
Skunk2 rear lca's

I wish I had a pic of it because when I lowered the car down the rear tires were almost riding on the sidewalls. Looked funny as hell. Sent the lift back up and installed the camber kits and got it as close to matching on the fronts from side to side and the also with the rears. Then took it an aligment shop and had them dial it in at -2* front and -2.5* rear and zeroed the rest out.

 

Better to have and not need it and return it, then not have it and need it then have to wait a week for it.

 

no you dont need it...not sure how the hell japanjay got -10* camber since even the best camber kit will only fix up to 4 degrees generally...

i run -3.5 degrees in teh rear dropped 4 inchs in teh front 3 in the rear on my 97 hatch just did a tire rotation completely even wear...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Declectic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
by all of "our" cars, do you mean like.. 88-current honda civic? etc.. all models? (i ask because I have a 93dx and it's my first 92-95)</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ok, let me rephrase a little.

If you have a 70s Honda with a beam axle in the back, you might not have adjustable rear toe, but certainly have adjustable front toe. If you have an independent suspension Honda (or a Fit, since it isn't really a true IRS), you have adjustable toe front and rear.

 

All I know is that the rear, which I am assuming was from the aftermarket rear lower control arms had the rear camber so bad that it was not drivable. And that negative 4 that you talk about, are you sure you are not referring to what the front camber kits max out at correcting? Also I am tucking a 215/45r16 abotu an inch in the front and also in the back, if that gives you any reference about how low I have the drop at.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by japanjay &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">All I know is that the rear, which I am assuming was from the aftermarket rear lower control arms had the rear camber so bad that it was not drivable. And that negative 4 that you talk about, are you sure you are not referring to what the front camber kits max out at correcting? Also I am tucking a 215/45r16 abotu an inch in the front and also in the back, if that gives you any reference about how low I have the drop at.</TD></TR></TABLE>

no i am running -3.5 degrees...

please just do a search on camber wear...camber doest eat your tires away toe does...

wtf is with all these camber questions lately...

 

Reading is mental. Reread my post and qoute me were I said it does. I am saying that I needed it to correct it because my tires on the rear were almost riding on the side walls. Take your hand and hold it in front of your face and turn so you are going to chop something, now turn like a clock counter clockwise and stop at 10 oclock. That is the angle my back right was at. Do the same thing but clock wise and stop at 2 and that is what my back left tire was like. I am glad I had the kit because if not my car would have been parked for at least a week waiting for one to come in or I would have had to switch everything back to stock, waited a week, then go through the process again. If I didnt need it I would have returned it, but I also liked the fact I have both backs and fronts exactly at -2*&-2.5. That was a year ago and I am sure since the coilovers have settled now in that time I am guessing they are around -2.5*&-3. I have RT-615's for the last year at that setting and it is a daily and I have not rotated the tires and they still look almost brand new, oh and I drive my car really hard. It sees 100+ weekly and mountain roads every couple. And if it helps, my car is about half a pack of cigs off the ground.

My rear end looked like the delorean off back to the future when it switchs from driving to flying. Wasnt drivable. Never in my life have I seen anyone run camber that extreme, and I lived in japan for 2 years were demon camber is quite normal.

 

hm.. does this help folks at all?





seems to me that its is kind of a combination of the two for even tread wear no?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by japanjay &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Reading is mental. Reread my post and qoute me were I said it does. I am saying that I needed it to correct it because my tires on the rear were almost riding on the side walls. Take your hand and hold it in front of your face and turn so you are going to chop something, now turn like a clock counter clockwise and stop at 10 oclock. That is the angle my back right was at. Do the same thing but clock wise and stop at 2 and that is what my back left tire was like. I am glad I had the kit because if not my car would have been parked for at least a week waiting for one to come in or I would have had to switch everything back to stock, waited a week, then go through the process again. If I didnt need it I would have returned it, but I also liked the fact I have both backs and fronts exactly at -2*&-2.5. That was a year ago and I am sure since the coilovers have settled now in that time I am guessing they are around -2.5*&-3. I have RT-615's for the last year at that setting and it is a daily and I have not rotated the tires and they still look almost brand new, oh and I drive my car really hard. It sees 100+ weekly and mountain roads every couple. And if it helps, my car is about half a pack of cigs off the ground.

My rear end looked like the delorean off back to the future when it switchs from driving to flying. Wasnt drivable. Never in my life have I seen anyone run camber that extreme, and I lived in japan for 2 years were demon camber is quite normal. </TD></TR></TABLE>

from your explaination you are talking about caster not camber...

no way in hell is somone going to get -10 degree camber unless something is completely messed up in your suspension. I took the shocks out of my civic and body dropped it and it didnt get that much camber.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Declectic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">hm.. does this help folks at all?





seems to me that its is kind of a combination of the two for even tread wear no?</TD></TR></TABLE>

No. Its is not a combination.

Tires are filled with air. This allows the tire to deform as it comes into contact with the road surface as it rolls. That picture shows things incorrectly, as even with massive negative camber, the entire tread surface of the tire will be in contact with the road, the tire deforms to allow this.

Toe, on the other hand, causes the tire to be dragged sideways across the road as you travel. This is what kills tires.

I daily on -4* of front camber in my DC2, no "camber wear" present in the 2 years I have had this alignment. My other car is a Triumph Spitfire, and runs -4.75* of rear camber, and has never shown any signs of abnormal tire wear in the 15 years I have had the car (and amusingly that camber value is within the manufacturers spec).

 

^ bump for spitfires


and honda people bitch about camber. try adjusting it on a rear suspension like that has. even our fronts dont have adjustable upper a-arms.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TunerN00b &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

No. Its is not a combination.

Tires are filled with air. This allows the tire to deform as it comes into contact with the road surface as it rolls. That picture shows things incorrectly, as even with massive negative camber, the entire tread surface of the tire will be in contact with the road, the tire deforms to allow this.

Toe, on the other hand, causes the tire to be dragged sideways across the road as you travel. This is what kills tires.

I daily on -4* of front camber in my DC2, no "camber wear" present in the 2 years I have had this alignment. My other car is a Triumph Spitfire, and runs -4.75* of rear camber, and has never shown any signs of abnormal tire wear in the 15 years I have had the car (and amusingly that camber value is within the manufacturers spec).</TD></TR></TABLE>
actually, negative camber PLUS toe out, will eat tires faster than just toe out.

Yeah, the tires are filled with air and they conform to the road, but there is still more load on the inside of the tire! Compare that with the fat people that walk on the inside of their feet....yeah, the entire sole of the shoe touches the ground, but the inside is far more worn than the outside.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Evs-One &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
actually, negative camber PLUS toe out, will eat tires faster than just toe out.

Yeah, the tires are filled with air and they conform to the road, but there is still more load on the inside of the tire! Compare that with the fat people that walk on the inside of their feet....yeah, the entire sole of the shoe touches the ground, but the inside is far more worn than the outside.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The sole of your shoe is not filled with air, and does not deform the same.

Tire pressure is measure in psi, and this pressure is uniform regardless of where on the tire we measure from, thats how air works. You can't have more load on the inside than the outside (that would require a pressure difference), pneumatics don't work like that.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by VTECIntegra9 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">^ bump for spitfires

and honda people bitch about camber. try adjusting it on a rear suspension like that has. even our fronts dont have adjustable upper a-arms. </TD></TR></TABLE>

You can adjust the front through the use of shims. Need more negative camber, shim the LCA out further from the frame. Need less, shim the UCA. Thats about the only thing the suspension on those cars have correct, all front suspension points are bolted to the frame horizontally.

But in regards to the back, yeah. Swing axle suspensions are just wrong. Mine had a sagging spring when I purchased it, and was running upwards of -8* of rear camber.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TunerN00b &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

The sole of your shoe is not filled with air, and does not deform the same.

Tire pressure is measure in psi, and this pressure is uniform regardless of where on the tire we measure from, thats how air works. You can't have more load on the inside than the outside (that would require a pressure difference), pneumatics don't work like that.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Just because the pressure inside the tire is the same throughout, does not mean the force exerted on the tire at the contact points is not different.

Pressure is equal even on the top of the tire where there is no load placed upon it! Go look at a slammed car with 4* of negative camber and 0* toe. The outside of the tire is not even touching the ground!

The tire will wear at the contact patch...camber will change where that contact point is!

But it's the same old argument over and over...toe is the tire killer. I'm not talking about 2* of camber...I'm talking 3.5*+

Edit-



Explain to me how this tire will wear even across the tread!

 

so im guessing an alignment will work if my car is slammed

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Evs-One &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Explain to me how this tire will wear even across the tread!</TD></TR></TABLE>

It won't, not with the tires radically overinflated like that. Both the inside and outside shoulders will show minimal signs of wear, while the center of the tread wears quickly.

With proper pressure, the outside shoulder would be touching the ground.

I'm also going to go out on a limb and say that since its a VW, its probably equipped with "stretched" tires as well, which works to prevent the sidewall from deforming correctly. This part is a guess though, since we can't tell from that picture.

-4.75* of rear camber. Even tire wear for the last 15 years. Toe is correctly set to 1/16" toe in at both ends. Car has only been aligned 4 times in 15 years to boot.


*edit: Honestly, I don't want to argue this. I have yet to see any form of camber wear actually manifest itself, and I run more negative camber than most people. Take that for what its worth, just 1 car enthusiast with experience on 2 completely different cars, both of which run radical camber, and both of which wear their tires evenly.

Now, my autocross tires have radically uneven wear. The inside of all 4 tires is worn 3/32" more than the outside. RT-615 Azenis, 204/40-16 size. They would probably wear much more evenly if I didn't spin the tires so much on corner exit (I need an LSD).

Autocross (and track) conditions should never be encountered on the street, so how race tires wear is not indicative of wear during normal use conditions.


Modified by TunerN00b at 4:34 PM 8/20/2008

 

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I know where you're coming from, but you can't relate a car with balloon tires to the ones most kids run these days. My old 70 Chevy pickup with 225-75-15 tires on 5.5" rims had almost 5* neg camber up front and had no funner wear as well!

Your Spitfire has what, 5.5" wide rims?? You have much more sidewall flex with those tires allowing for a lot of give to compensate for the negative camber.

Run almost 5* neg camber with 195-50-15, and you will see the inner tread wear faster.

 

so what i'm gathering is this (based all on the information thrown around)

after I throw my F2 coilovers on, need to get an alignment (I most likely need one anyway) but I'm looking to have the toe aligned at 0

mean while, I don't have a camber kit, so i assume that with the OEM 93 civic DX setup the camber isn't adjustable, so the tires will be titled anyway?... but I should be fine as far as tire wear goes?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Declectic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so what i'm gathering is this (based all on the information thrown around)

after I throw my F2 coilovers on, need to get an alignment (I most likely need one anyway) but I'm looking to have the toe aligned at 0

mean while, I don't have a camber kit, so i assume that with the OEM 93 civic DX setup the camber isn't adjustable, so the tires will be titled anyway?... but I should be fine as far as tire wear goes?</TD></TR></TABLE>

If you're around 3* or less negative camber, you will be just fine.

 

touching your suspsension in anyway you shoudl always get an alignment just in case.

i run -3.5 in the rear due to me lowering it 3 inchs so far even tire wear for the past 3.5 years

 

no ****, good information guys

where does everyone get their alignments done at?

 

I went to les schwab. Told them I was pulling my car on the rack and pulling it off and as going to stand there and watch and also get a print out. Told them that were the rear and front were set just dial them in even and have the toe set to zero and caster set to zero. They were totally cool with it.


Oh and lobster, when you hold your hand in front of you like this (l) and then tilt it to this (/) that is camber. Caster is how far back or forward the tire sits in the fender well in reards to front and back, not side to side.