I have a '95 Civic EX 2 Dr VTECH with a serious cold start problem. I posted another post and did not get the help I need, for more info read here:
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread/2354325

This time I will just try to ask a simple question. A little background first:

'95 Honda Civic, 140K miles, replaced collapsed PCV hose and stuck PCV valve this morning, also swapped out the main relay. When cold in the morning, car will turn over forever, cranking the starter, and does not fire at all. After cranking for maybe 10-20 seconds, engine will fire but not catch, and keep cranking. Might fire several times but cannot seem to maintain that ignition and stops when you release the key. Try again and it might and probably will finally fire and turn over, then sputter a bit and then purrs like a kitten. Runs great, no misfiring, no stalling, runs great. Just cannot get it to start when cold. If shut off and started again, will probably start right up. After sitting hours, might be harder to start but will catch and start. Overnight, Houston, we have a problem. Car turns over and over with starter, won't fire and start. Keep trying and eventually it will start or you might run out of battery before it does. (Battery is new.)

Back to basics:

A decent car needs two things to start:
(The car runs great so we can rule out block and timing.)

1.) Fuel
2.) Spark

If either one of these two things are missing, the car will crank and crank and will not fire, or start. This is what my car does when cold.

Spark:
I can put a long screwdriver into any spark plug boot, hold it near the valve cover, turn on the key, turn on the starter, and watch spark jump from screwdriver to valve cover, almost 1/2" in length. I have done this with plug #4, but not all plugs. Do I have to check every plug? This is the only way I know of to check the ignition and for spark, isn't this a suitable test?

Fuel:
Okay, I am a little weak in this area. In the old days, I could spray starting fluid (Ether) into the carburetor and if the car now started, fuel was the problem. I could put a line wrench on the fuel line at the carburetor, take it off, crank the car, and see if gas came out of the open line. This car uses fuel injection. How do you check for fuel in a car like this? This morning I took the big hose from the air cleaner off and sprayed ether into hose, got in car, and tried to start it. Nothing. Just cranked and cranked and not even a hint of firing. The guy at Advance Auto Parts said I have to spray starting fluid into big hose, then RECONNECT it, then try to start the car. Is that so? After spraying into hose, it took a few seconds for me to get into car and try to start it, ether could have came back out of hose. It would be nice to have two people, spray into hose while cranking car. I don't know how to check fuel injectors to see if they are spraying fuel and hope not to have to take the rack of injectors out and then try to crank car, there must be a better way. How do you check a modern ('95 Civic) car to see what is missing when it won't start, spark or fuel? How do you check if fuel is getting into the engine? I cannot pour gas into carburetor as there is none so what do you do? How do you check what is missing when trying to start a car that will not catch a spark and fire up when cranking?

Somebody help as this issue will come up tomorrow morning, I am most sure of it and I am going to get stuck again. I need a way to find what is stopping the car from starting. Thanks.

~Ohmster


Modified by Ohmster at 11:16 PM 7/29/2008

 

A cold engine also needs a little extra intake air to fire. Have you checked the fast idle valve and the EACV on the throttle body?

 

...uh, no. What and where are they? How do you check them? I will look in the manual but this is something I never heard of.

~Ohmster

 

They are both attached to the throttle body. Check the fast idle valve first:

 

Will check, thank you. Wow, this is page 291 in the manual, word for word!

I just did some googling for "95 honda civic EACV" and I keep hearing about air in the coolant for some reason. Here is one example:
================================================== =============
i have a 95 civic ex. the idle jumps from 1000 to 2000 constantly, everyone says its the iacv valve. i purchased one guaranteed to work from ebay and installed it but still have problem. please help, this is getting to become annoying.

Optional Information:
1995 Honda civic ex d16z6

Already Tried:
i have cleaned the original iacv and also installed a (good) used one.
================================================== =============
sounds like air in the coolant you should try to bleed hte cooling system
================================================== =============

I don't know if this is related, but I DO have a coolant and air problem in this car and it is driving me nuts! Every 2-3 days, the car would overheat and I would find the coolant reservoir is empty and there is an air bubble in the radiator. I would add coolant to both and the car would be okay again for 2-3 days. Eventually I found a green stain on the back of the engine, starting under the thermostat housing. I took it off, found no thermostat or gasket, only a thin bead of black silicone and it had scale on one side where it was leaking. I installed a new thermostat and gasket, even put a thin line of blue silicone on gasket to be sure.

You know what? The problem is still there! I have to add coolant every day or 2 or I end up with the temp gauge going up and no coolant in reservoir and an air bubble in the radiator. I have no clue where the water is going as there is no water dripping or any evidence that I can put my finger on.

Could these two problems (starting and running low on coolant every 2 days) be related?

~Ohmster


Modified by Ohmster at 10:58 PM 7/29/2008

 

Yes, air/gas in the cooling system may be the root of your problem. Try buying a new radiator cap as your current one may not be properly holding pressure. Then top off both the reservoir and radiator with coolant and bleed the system of air. If you continue to lose coolant, you may have a leak or bad head gasket. If you fix the coolant loss problem, and the cold start issue persists, then check the fast idle valve and EACV.

 

Dam!

The radiator cap is new. Since buying such an older car with so many miles on it (141K), I have already replaced both radiator hoses, the cap, now the thermostat and gasket, and all four heater hoses. What else is there to check or replace?

Maybe the new cap is bad, I don't know for sure, I just know that since it was not expensive, I replaced it already. Yet the water is low by the end of the day and I do not do a lot of driving in the car. 10 miles a day? Sometimes 20-25? I top off the radiator tonight and the overflow and by the end of tomorrow, the water will be low enough so that if I drive 20 miles, I will get a rising temp gauge. Accelerating and moving fast on the highway makes the temp drop, stuck in traffic and it rises dangerously. I have to carry water and coolant everywhere.

For sure the green stain and no thermostat or gasket with the scale on the bead of silicone should have fixed the leak, I was astonished when 3 days later, I had a rising temp gauge again! Oh crap, where is the water going? I am so mad I could spit. My Del Sol never had problems like this and I sure wish I still had it. (I got sucked under a semi trailer at around 70 MPH on the highway. While trying to pass the semi, the car got pulled right under the truck by the suction, can believe this!)

Well, the water and coolant in the radiator seem clean, oil is not milky, no real loss of oil to speak of. I just keep running low on water. Must refill overflow container every day, will get a bubble in radiator every two days. Since this water problem showed up, the car has been getting harder and harder to start each morning until today when I got stuck and had to call a tow truck because the battery would not last long enough to keep cranking the car.

Any suggestions would sure be welcome. Thanks for all of your help.

~Ohmster

 

Does the radiator fan run when the engine is hot?

By the way, you should use 50:50 coolant/water in the cooling system. It better prevents boil over and freezing, and importantly keeps the engine from dying from corrosion cancer.

 

Yes, the fan works, have been using 50/50 water coolant.

~Ohmster

 

Unless a leak can be located, you possibly may want to test for a blown head gasket.

 

A car can run and purr along with a blown head gasket? No milky oil? Once started runs like a top? This could be a tiny leak in the head gasket? Oh crap.

So then to test for that, put a compression gauge in each spark plug hole and crank the engine over? How do you test for that?

Thanks. (God this sucks!)

~Ohmster

 

There are many compression test DIYs out there. Here's one:

http://www.hondacivicforum.com/m_386770/tm.htm

 

Thank you. I got a mechanic friend and he must have pressure testing stuff. He changed the main relay today because he said this kind of problem drove him nuts for days until changing it so we put in a different one. Still, I don't think it is fixed though as the car was hard to start again later in the day after sitting for a while.

I put a can of gas treatment in the tank because I heard a lot about "bad gas" and bought a can of starting fluid to try in the morning if the car won't start again. Do you recommend trying the starting fluid? How do you use this stuff on a car with injectors, spray it into the air line, take it off at the air cleaner? Spray it into the hose, put it back on the air cleaner, and try to start the car? I tried that this morning but did not put the hose back before trying to start the car, it did not seem to help. Still, this would tell if the fuel were a problem, wouldn't it?

Don't we go by the rule of need spark, need fuel if it does not kick at all? It does kick though after cranking for a while. The CEL comes on for two seconds when key is turned, I can feel the main relay click. What do you think about the basic spark/fuel test when engine won't fire at all?

The compression testing instructions you gave were good. Thanks. God I hope that ain't it, don't have that kind of money right now nor the tools and a garage to do that kind of work.

 

...so pinhole in the head gasket, little dampness on plugs, they won't fire, car won't start. Is that the scenario? Ugh. That is why I can pull a plug wire and see a nice spark, yet ether into engine did not help when I tried it. Car starts, plugs dry out quickly, car runs great. Plausible?

 

I would categorize your issue as a difficult cold-start problem. No-spark or no-fuel would instead produce a no-start problem. Of course, intermittent no-spark or no-fuel might resemble your problem, but the fact that the problem only occurs with a cold engine makes me lean toward the difficult cold-start diagnosis. Nonetheless, you can test your no-spark or no-fuel idea by checking for spark and listening for fuel pump priming when the cold engine won't start. I think your spark test already rules out a no-spark problem.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ohmster &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...so pinhole in the head gasket, little dampness on plugs, they won't fire, car won't start. Is that the scenario? Ugh. That is why I can pull a plug wire and see a nice spark, yet ether into engine did not help when I tried it. Car starts, plugs dry out quickly, car runs great. Plausible?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I think trapped air/gas in the cooling system may be discombobulating the coolant temperature sensor and the EACV. The air may also cause the fast idle valve to malfunction, which is a well known cause for the difficult cold-start problem.

In addition, the fast idle valve just may not be working properly, which can be tested as shown in the diagram.

 

i would do a compression check just to eliminate that from the list, cause an engine needs all 3 to start. When you pull the plugs smell for fuel. dont forget to check timing also.

 

Thank you all for your help. I got a new main relay yesterday, this morning was hard starting again, but the engine caught and fired on the second try so I could go to work today.

It seems that we have two categories here, won't start and hard starting. Mine falls into the hard starting category then. I am losing about 8 ounces of water a day. Where is it going, I don't know. Do I have to degrease the engine and then watch it for stains? This is a 141K mile motor and everything leaks a little bit so I don't know what that would show.

One thing at a time, I think I have to check the fast idle valve and the Electronic Air Control Valve to see if they are working right or not. Maybe I can do that this weekend.

I don't like to leave a thread unclosed so I will be back. Thanks for your help.

Any other ideas of course are welcome.

 

for hard starting when cold, I think it might be worth a shot to check your fuel pressure. I'm not sure what the spec is...
all I know is this: if you loose pressure in your lines (bad check valve or regulator), then the fuel that should be held in the lines slowly leaks back into the tank. After the car sits, there is no residual pressure, and you have to keep cranking until the fuel pressure builds up again before the injectors can start spraying to start the car.
I would hook up a fuel gauge, check pressure. Let it sit for a while with the gauge connected. Watch for a slow leak. I'm not sure what Honda's specs for a leak test is, but the generic rule of thumb is that the fuel pressure should not decrease by more than 20psi/20min

 

as for your coolant...

Did you notice any oil in the coolant reservoir? or milky oil on your dipstick? does your car burn white smoke out the tail? If no to all three questions, I don't really think that you have a problem with your head gasket - especially since you found a pool of coolant under your car. You are probably dealing with an exterior leak somewhere within the cooling system.
I would start with a visual inspection. See if there is dried, white powdery substance anywhere. When the engine is running, the cooling system is under high pressure. Leaks usually spray out (even small ones) rather than drip. Coolant can spray onto other components, or onto the underside of the hood (depending on where your leak is). Then, when it dries up, it turns into a white residue.
If you can't visually see anything, try using a coolant pressure tester. It's a hand pump that attaches to where your radiator cap goes. Then you pump it up to around 1.5 bar or whatever your cap rating is, and wait. The pressure should hold. If it doesn't, look for a leak while the system is under pressure.

 

one more thing:
what was the condition of your spark plug? coolant in the combustion chamber usually cleans the plug.

 

This is a 2 year old thread. My guess is that Ohmster solved his problem long ago.