E85 Competition & Classification
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From: San Antonio, TX, USA
E85 Competition & Classification
Yesterday I blogged about the possibility of competing with an E85-fueled car [http://racingready.com/2008/07/23/ca...mpete-on-e85/]. I brought up 2 issues that I’d like some feedback on:
- Since the IndyCar & America LeMans Series (ALMS) are running racecars powered by ethanol-based fuels (IndyCar – 100% fuel grade ethanol, ALMS Teams Corvette & Aston Martin – E85), why aren’t manufacturers making sports/enthusiast appealing cars fueled by E85 & promoting those cross promotional opportunities, to “Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday”?
- Has the SCCA addressed the classification of E85-fueled vehicles? Since the power characteristics of these vehicles vary, based on what fuel is being used, that could change the class one runs in. But this point could be mute since there is virtually no selection of E85-fueled vehicles to compete in Solo/autocross.
What are your opinions, informed or otherwise, on this and other alternative fuel technologies, as they apply to current and future SCCA competition?
Thanks, RacingReadyDan
- Since the IndyCar & America LeMans Series (ALMS) are running racecars powered by ethanol-based fuels (IndyCar – 100% fuel grade ethanol, ALMS Teams Corvette & Aston Martin – E85), why aren’t manufacturers making sports/enthusiast appealing cars fueled by E85 & promoting those cross promotional opportunities, to “Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday”?
- Has the SCCA addressed the classification of E85-fueled vehicles? Since the power characteristics of these vehicles vary, based on what fuel is being used, that could change the class one runs in. But this point could be mute since there is virtually no selection of E85-fueled vehicles to compete in Solo/autocross.
What are your opinions, informed or otherwise, on this and other alternative fuel technologies, as they apply to current and future SCCA competition?
Thanks, RacingReadyDan
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From: Chicagoland, IL
Re: E85 Competition & Classification (RacingReadyDan)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RacingReadyDan »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
- Has the SCCA addressed the classification of E85-fueled vehicles? Since the power characteristics of these vehicles vary, based on what fuel is being used, that could change the class one runs in. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Where have you seen this documented, that E85 results in different power on a E85-ready car?
Do you get more power from E85 because of more oxygenation? Maybe 1-2%?
Last SCCA rules I'd seen on fuel specify a certain specific gravity. NASA doesn't have that rule (in general, at least.)
So... does anyone care about E85? I don't, except that it has better octane, and may or may not eat my fuel lines.
-Chris
- Has the SCCA addressed the classification of E85-fueled vehicles? Since the power characteristics of these vehicles vary, based on what fuel is being used, that could change the class one runs in. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Where have you seen this documented, that E85 results in different power on a E85-ready car?
Do you get more power from E85 because of more oxygenation? Maybe 1-2%?
Last SCCA rules I'd seen on fuel specify a certain specific gravity. NASA doesn't have that rule (in general, at least.)
So... does anyone care about E85? I don't, except that it has better octane, and may or may not eat my fuel lines.
-Chris
Princess
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From: ATX
Re: E85 Competition & Classification (slammed_93_hatch)
Intake Air Temps on E85 (read alcohol) are typically much lower than those on gasoline. You could stand to make 5-10% more power on a properly tuned E85 setup over a setup running 93...There's obviously less to be made if you're already running 110+ fuels...
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From: Luebeck, Schleswig-Holstein, Germany
Re: E85 Competition & Classification (...esteban)
E85 is a GM push that will not succede. mainly because it is from GM. Running E85 is similiar to the diesel powered cars, they are nto marketed towards the "racing" crowds and only a few teams are beginning to experiment with them. It appears that there is really no gain to these performance models because when running race gas the difference is slim to null. and I would like to see some 1 market a Diesel/E85 s2k or something and see how it is better.
Like Chris said there are some SCCA rules but nothing 2 specific as of yet.
Go Gasoline... Until we run on hydrogen/batteries.
Like Chris said there are some SCCA rules but nothing 2 specific as of yet.
Go Gasoline... Until we run on hydrogen/batteries.
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Re: E85 Competition & Classification (...esteban)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ...esteban »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Intake Air Temps on E85 (read alcohol) are typically much lower than those on gasoline. You could stand to make 5-10% more power on a properly tuned E85 setup over a setup running 93...There's obviously less to be made if you're already running 110+ fuels...</TD></TR></TABLE>
E85 apparently has less of an energy (BTU) content per gallon than gasoline does, so you wouldn't go as far on a (same size) full tank under say ... enduro situations (you'll need to burn more fuel to get the same power output).
Here is a representative web page:
http://zfacts.com/p/436.html
Modified by Zygspeed at 1:33 PM 7/26/2008
E85 apparently has less of an energy (BTU) content per gallon than gasoline does, so you wouldn't go as far on a (same size) full tank under say ... enduro situations (you'll need to burn more fuel to get the same power output).
Here is a representative web page:
http://zfacts.com/p/436.html
Modified by Zygspeed at 1:33 PM 7/26/2008
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Joined: Jun 2004
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From: Chicagoland, IL
Re: E85 Competition & Classification (unrealwrc)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by unrealwrc »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Like Chris said there are some SCCA rules but nothing 2 specific as of yet. </TD></TR></TABLE>
What the hell are you talking about? Go find the rule. It's extremely specific.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ...esteban »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Intake Air Temps on E85 (read alcohol) are typically much lower than those on gasoline. You could stand to make 5-10% more power on a properly tuned E85 setup over a setup running 93...There's obviously less to be made if you're already running 110+ fuels...</TD></TR></TABLE>
If you fly here, retune my car for E85 and make 10% more power, I'll give you $2000 and pay for your flight. Seriously. Show me an NA car that made 10% by switching from 93 octane pump gas to E85. Or 5%.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Zygspeed »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
E85 apparently has less of an energy (BTU) content per gallon than gasoline does</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yeah, and you may or may not need bigger injectors (at least a tune) to take any advantage of E85.
What the hell are you talking about? Go find the rule. It's extremely specific.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ...esteban »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Intake Air Temps on E85 (read alcohol) are typically much lower than those on gasoline. You could stand to make 5-10% more power on a properly tuned E85 setup over a setup running 93...There's obviously less to be made if you're already running 110+ fuels...</TD></TR></TABLE>
If you fly here, retune my car for E85 and make 10% more power, I'll give you $2000 and pay for your flight. Seriously. Show me an NA car that made 10% by switching from 93 octane pump gas to E85. Or 5%.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Zygspeed »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
E85 apparently has less of an energy (BTU) content per gallon than gasoline does</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yeah, and you may or may not need bigger injectors (at least a tune) to take any advantage of E85.
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Princess
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From: ATX
Re: E85 Competition & Classification (Chris F)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris F »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you fly here, retune my car for E85 and make 10% more power, I'll give you $2000 and pay for your flight. Seriously. Show me an NA car that made 10% by switching from 93 octane pump gas to E85. Or 5%.</TD></TR></TABLE>
My friend, I will be the first to tell you I am not qualified to tune your car on E85...nor on gasoline as I do not want the responsibility....however...
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=2351459
There are more gains to be made with FI systems, those tend to be on the ~10% side of things...However, gains can be made...
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1701028
Some cliffs in this thread, water tepmps went down roughly ~15* and EGT's lowered roughly ~200*, while gaining 20 whp over 91 octance...This however, was in a JRSC Prelude, so these gains shouldn't be to anyone's surprise using that heater blower...
My friend, I will be the first to tell you I am not qualified to tune your car on E85...nor on gasoline as I do not want the responsibility....however...
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=2351459
There are more gains to be made with FI systems, those tend to be on the ~10% side of things...However, gains can be made...
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1701028
Some cliffs in this thread, water tepmps went down roughly ~15* and EGT's lowered roughly ~200*, while gaining 20 whp over 91 octance...This however, was in a JRSC Prelude, so these gains shouldn't be to anyone's surprise using that heater blower...
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From: East Lansing, MI, USA
Re: E85 Competition & Classification (...esteban)
E85 is the way to go in the future. Of course there is nothing that can replace good 'ole pump gas. In a perfect world gas would never run out and beer would rain from the heavens. But the world is not perfect, apparently smog is a problem. Once cellulosic ethanol is developed, ethanol will be the future of the auto industry (race or production).
I know from people that work in the Big 3 that every engineer wants to go e85. The reason for this being that no one really wants to see Hybrids everywhere. I think we can all agree that they would rather live in a world full of IC ethanol cars rather than a world full of Priuses.
I know from people that work in the Big 3 that every engineer wants to go e85. The reason for this being that no one really wants to see Hybrids everywhere. I think we can all agree that they would rather live in a world full of IC ethanol cars rather than a world full of Priuses.
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Oh man, once Sander sees this, he's gonna blow this thread up. As my tuner, he convinced me to do it. Basically, it has the same effect as running 100+ octane gas, but is much cheaper, and there's a good chance I could make a little more power than a race gas tune. Plus the lower temps (both head and EGT) are a good thing for a rasekar
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From: Maryland
Re: E85 Competition & Classification (Zygspeed)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Zygspeed »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
E85 apparently has less of an energy (BTU) content per gallon than gasoline does, so you wouldn't go as far on a (same size) full tank under say ... enduro situations (you'll need to burn more fuel to get the same power output).
Modified by Zygspeed at 1:33 PM 7/26/2008</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes. You will use more. BTU calculations are correct in determining quantity needed for the equally efficient burn. It is a bad habit to get bent in to BTU ratings determining the "power" of the fuel. (Not saying you are implying this Ed, just noting) If BTU ratings were determing that we would all be using diesel as it has a higher BTU than gasoline, while methanol has the lowest of popular fuels at only ~60K, while diesel is around 140K!
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ...esteban »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Intake Air Temps on E85 (read alcohol) are typically much lower than those on gasoline. You could stand to make 5-10% more power on a properly tuned E85 setup over a setup running 93...There's obviously less to be made if you're already running 110+ fuels...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Correct, but not about the power gain. I have seen 2-3% in my car, and others I have done. (93 oct -> E85)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ekmaniac101 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">E85 is the way to go in the future. Of course there is nothing that can replace good 'ole pump gas. In a perfect world gas would never run out and beer would rain from the heavens. But the world is not perfect, apparently smog is a problem. Once cellulosic ethanol is developed, ethanol will be the future of the auto industry (race or production).
I know from people that work in the Big 3 that every engineer wants to go e85. The reason for this being that no one really wants to see Hybrids everywhere. I think we can all agree that they would rather live in a world full of IC ethanol cars rather than a world full of Priuses. </TD></TR></TABLE>
E85 is so so so far from the "way of the future". Transportation of the fuel is a huge problem. Cellulosic ethanol is way off, The production process of current CORN eth is horrible, interms of wasted bio mass to produce it along with lots of wasted water (another thing we are becoming shorter on). Mom and Pop are not going to like the "miles to empty tank" problem when they drop 50+ miles on a fill up. Filling stations on the east coast and west coast are still far and few between.
There is no way of the future, in a sense were all [freak]ed unless we have a mass plague or everyone starts riding bicycles. There are too many people on earth.
That being said, I do like ethanol for race cars, The temp differences are pretty extraordinary. There is power to be had, It is very safe easy fuel to tune with. And there are not any adverse problems I have seen with seals or fuel lines or pumps after using it for almost a year and a half. The power differences on naturally aspirated cars are almost negligible, although there are some and the safety margin with the fuel is far greater, and that helps me sleep better at night.
-sander.
E85 apparently has less of an energy (BTU) content per gallon than gasoline does, so you wouldn't go as far on a (same size) full tank under say ... enduro situations (you'll need to burn more fuel to get the same power output).
Modified by Zygspeed at 1:33 PM 7/26/2008</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes. You will use more. BTU calculations are correct in determining quantity needed for the equally efficient burn. It is a bad habit to get bent in to BTU ratings determining the "power" of the fuel. (Not saying you are implying this Ed, just noting) If BTU ratings were determing that we would all be using diesel as it has a higher BTU than gasoline, while methanol has the lowest of popular fuels at only ~60K, while diesel is around 140K!
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ...esteban »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Intake Air Temps on E85 (read alcohol) are typically much lower than those on gasoline. You could stand to make 5-10% more power on a properly tuned E85 setup over a setup running 93...There's obviously less to be made if you're already running 110+ fuels...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Correct, but not about the power gain. I have seen 2-3% in my car, and others I have done. (93 oct -> E85)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ekmaniac101 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">E85 is the way to go in the future. Of course there is nothing that can replace good 'ole pump gas. In a perfect world gas would never run out and beer would rain from the heavens. But the world is not perfect, apparently smog is a problem. Once cellulosic ethanol is developed, ethanol will be the future of the auto industry (race or production).
I know from people that work in the Big 3 that every engineer wants to go e85. The reason for this being that no one really wants to see Hybrids everywhere. I think we can all agree that they would rather live in a world full of IC ethanol cars rather than a world full of Priuses. </TD></TR></TABLE>
E85 is so so so far from the "way of the future". Transportation of the fuel is a huge problem. Cellulosic ethanol is way off, The production process of current CORN eth is horrible, interms of wasted bio mass to produce it along with lots of wasted water (another thing we are becoming shorter on). Mom and Pop are not going to like the "miles to empty tank" problem when they drop 50+ miles on a fill up. Filling stations on the east coast and west coast are still far and few between.
There is no way of the future, in a sense were all [freak]ed unless we have a mass plague or everyone starts riding bicycles. There are too many people on earth.
That being said, I do like ethanol for race cars, The temp differences are pretty extraordinary. There is power to be had, It is very safe easy fuel to tune with. And there are not any adverse problems I have seen with seals or fuel lines or pumps after using it for almost a year and a half. The power differences on naturally aspirated cars are almost negligible, although there are some and the safety margin with the fuel is far greater, and that helps me sleep better at night.
-sander.
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From: Orange County, CA
Re: E85 Competition & Classification (slammed_93_hatch)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">because E85 is a joke</TD></TR></TABLE>
You know, Jimmy, its posts like this that make you look like a real dick online sometimes. I know you; you're better than that...
Politically and economically, E-85s got issues.
But as a race car/tuner car fuel, specifically Honda Challenge or ITA fuel, its actually pretty cool chit. What's not to like about government subsidized 105-110 octane equivalent fuel you can buy at the pump for the same price as regular? Its really a very good fuel. I'd take a season on E-85 over a season of 91/93 octane pump gas any time. Unless we're talking enduros... Then I'd take gas. Or better yet, diesel.
The POLITICS behind E-85 (and to some extent highway vehicle mileage) are the problems with it. Right up there with NOT drilling for oil at Anwar, E-85 is more about keeping liberal politicians in office and "looking" green than it is a bout real environmental problem solving. Oh, and the farmers like it, too.
But since when do racers and tuners give a chit about being green? Sure, they recycle their beer cans and take their oil to the parts store for proper disposal. But they're also the first to rip off their emission control devices, the first to tune their cars for power over efficiency and the first to drive needlessly for fun.
I won't vote for E-85. But in the context of this forum, the original post's questions, and the cars you and I drive for fun, it is anything but a joke.
You know, Jimmy, its posts like this that make you look like a real dick online sometimes. I know you; you're better than that...
Politically and economically, E-85s got issues.
But as a race car/tuner car fuel, specifically Honda Challenge or ITA fuel, its actually pretty cool chit. What's not to like about government subsidized 105-110 octane equivalent fuel you can buy at the pump for the same price as regular? Its really a very good fuel. I'd take a season on E-85 over a season of 91/93 octane pump gas any time. Unless we're talking enduros... Then I'd take gas. Or better yet, diesel.
The POLITICS behind E-85 (and to some extent highway vehicle mileage) are the problems with it. Right up there with NOT drilling for oil at Anwar, E-85 is more about keeping liberal politicians in office and "looking" green than it is a bout real environmental problem solving. Oh, and the farmers like it, too.
But since when do racers and tuners give a chit about being green? Sure, they recycle their beer cans and take their oil to the parts store for proper disposal. But they're also the first to rip off their emission control devices, the first to tune their cars for power over efficiency and the first to drive needlessly for fun.
I won't vote for E-85. But in the context of this forum, the original post's questions, and the cars you and I drive for fun, it is anything but a joke.
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From: Chicagoland, IL
Re: E85 Competition & Classification (thawley)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thawley »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
You know, Jimmy, its posts like this that make you look like a real dick online sometimes. I know you; you're better than that...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Man, screw that. E85 is a joke and you know it. Sure it's got some interesting uses in motorsports when you need a high octane fuel on the cheap, but other than that, it's a joke.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ekmaniac101 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">E85 is the way to go in the future. Of course there is nothing that can replace good 'ole pump gas.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Those two sentences don't make sense next to each other.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GI8U2racing »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">As my tuner, he convinced me to do it. Basically, it has the same effect as running 100+ octane gas, but is much cheaper</TD></TR></TABLE>
What motor (same you you, Sander) and what compression? I'd be interested to see a 2-3% gain on a car that had been previously tuned on 93.
You know, Jimmy, its posts like this that make you look like a real dick online sometimes. I know you; you're better than that...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Man, screw that. E85 is a joke and you know it. Sure it's got some interesting uses in motorsports when you need a high octane fuel on the cheap, but other than that, it's a joke.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ekmaniac101 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">E85 is the way to go in the future. Of course there is nothing that can replace good 'ole pump gas.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Those two sentences don't make sense next to each other.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GI8U2racing »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">As my tuner, he convinced me to do it. Basically, it has the same effect as running 100+ octane gas, but is much cheaper</TD></TR></TABLE>
What motor (same you you, Sander) and what compression? I'd be interested to see a 2-3% gain on a car that had been previously tuned on 93.
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Re: E85 Competition & Classification (Chris F)
Chris, a quick "Google" search (e85 power and octane with racing ) just now turned up this H-T dyno on the subject:
https://honda-tech.com/zero...09088
Didn't read that topic yet ... going to het some groceries and a bottle of Merlot to "digest" this all with.
Also, how about propane (~120 octane) injection with 93 pump gas?
Also, Honda already has a CNG car in production ...
https://honda-tech.com/zero...09088
Didn't read that topic yet ... going to het some groceries and a bottle of Merlot to "digest" this all with.
Also, how about propane (~120 octane) injection with 93 pump gas?
Also, Honda already has a CNG car in production ...
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From: Maryland
Re: E85 Competition & Classification (Chris F)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris F »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
What motor (same you you, Sander) and what compression? I'd be interested to see a 2-3% gain on a car that had been previously tuned on 93.</TD></TR></TABLE>
This is my car (stock k20a2) who at this time was a little down on power to some leaky valves.
I tried to be as objective as I could with this. These two were on the same day, and they were obviously both tuned. Again though the power differences are minimal, I am more concerned about the dyno numbers that you can not see, like an improvement in intake air temp may not mean much on a dyno on a nice day, but at a 99 deg day for a twenty minute session, may make the difference you are not seeing on this chart.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Zygspeed »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Chris, a quick "Google" search (e85 power and octane with racing ) just now turned up this H-T dyno on the subject:
https://honda-tech.com/zero...09088
Didn't read that topic yet ... going to het some groceries and a bottle of Merlot to "digest" this all with.
Also, how about propane (~120 octane) injection with 93 pump gas?
Also, Honda already has a CNG car in production ...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Remember propane or any other fuel additive will NOT increase power by rasing octane. Octane is ONLY a measurement of resistance to pre-ignition, and is directly linear with burn time. Higher octane, slower burn (in a sense).
-sander.
What motor (same you you, Sander) and what compression? I'd be interested to see a 2-3% gain on a car that had been previously tuned on 93.</TD></TR></TABLE>
This is my car (stock k20a2) who at this time was a little down on power to some leaky valves.
I tried to be as objective as I could with this. These two were on the same day, and they were obviously both tuned. Again though the power differences are minimal, I am more concerned about the dyno numbers that you can not see, like an improvement in intake air temp may not mean much on a dyno on a nice day, but at a 99 deg day for a twenty minute session, may make the difference you are not seeing on this chart.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Zygspeed »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Chris, a quick "Google" search (e85 power and octane with racing ) just now turned up this H-T dyno on the subject:
https://honda-tech.com/zero...09088
Didn't read that topic yet ... going to het some groceries and a bottle of Merlot to "digest" this all with.
Also, how about propane (~120 octane) injection with 93 pump gas?
Also, Honda already has a CNG car in production ...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Remember propane or any other fuel additive will NOT increase power by rasing octane. Octane is ONLY a measurement of resistance to pre-ignition, and is directly linear with burn time. Higher octane, slower burn (in a sense).
-sander.
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Re: E85 Competition & Classification (sander)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sander »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Remember propane or any other fuel additive will NOT increase power by rasing octane. Octane is ONLY a measurement of resistance to pre-ignition, and is directly linear with burn time. Higher octane, slower burn (in a sense). </TD></TR></TABLE>
Certainly, an octane rating by itself doesn't do anything if it is not optimized.
In my situation (FI B series putting down ~400+ whp on 93), the use of 100, 110 and possibly even 120 octabe of propane would make a substantial difference when used in conjunction with timing changes and/or more boost potential.
At the moment, I need to work on my brakes as it is.
Certainly, an octane rating by itself doesn't do anything if it is not optimized.
In my situation (FI B series putting down ~400+ whp on 93), the use of 100, 110 and possibly even 120 octabe of propane would make a substantial difference when used in conjunction with timing changes and/or more boost potential.
At the moment, I need to work on my brakes as it is.
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Likes: 1
From: Maryland
Re: E85 Competition & Classification (Zygspeed)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Zygspeed »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Certainly, an octane rating by itself doesn't do anything if it is not optimized.
In my situation (FI B series putting down ~400+ whp on 93), the use of 100, 110 and possibly even 120 octabe of propane would make a substantial difference when used in conjunction with timing changes and/or more boost potential.
At the moment, I need to work on my brakes as it is. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Sounds like a good candidate for E85 in summer blend form of actual 85% ethanol!
Certainly, an octane rating by itself doesn't do anything if it is not optimized.
In my situation (FI B series putting down ~400+ whp on 93), the use of 100, 110 and possibly even 120 octabe of propane would make a substantial difference when used in conjunction with timing changes and/or more boost potential.
At the moment, I need to work on my brakes as it is.
</TD></TR></TABLE>Sounds like a good candidate for E85 in summer blend form of actual 85% ethanol!
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Joined: May 2002
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From: cali
Re: E85 Competition & Classification (thawley)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thawley »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
You know, Jimmy, its posts like this that make you look like a real dick online sometimes. I know you; you're better than that...
Politically and economically, E-85s got issues.
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While i understand i can be a dick, i don't see how that post was dick-ish...
He asked the question "why don't other manufactures push ethanol based fuels?" (or something to that effect.)
I answered it, because it is a joke, you and others elaborated a little more.
Sorry i didn't elaborate...
You know, Jimmy, its posts like this that make you look like a real dick online sometimes. I know you; you're better than that...
Politically and economically, E-85s got issues.
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While i understand i can be a dick, i don't see how that post was dick-ish...
He asked the question "why don't other manufactures push ethanol based fuels?" (or something to that effect.)
I answered it, because it is a joke, you and others elaborated a little more.
Sorry i didn't elaborate...
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Joined: Mar 2004
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From: Pittsburgh, pa, USA
Re: E85 Competition & Classification (slammed_93_hatch)
I know as far as "saving the world" E-85 is a complete joke
but as far as saving my world it has done wonders. I have a 400whp b series built for time attack racing and i can say the fuel has great benefits (cooling intake/exhaust temps and such) its just a shame that E-85 will die... along with GM and their absurd flex-fuel craze.
So i say as long as its here use it up. In the future look for other race driven companies to push the envelope with alternative fueled cars for the sports enthusiast.
but as far as saving my world it has done wonders. I have a 400whp b series built for time attack racing and i can say the fuel has great benefits (cooling intake/exhaust temps and such) its just a shame that E-85 will die... along with GM and their absurd flex-fuel craze.
So i say as long as its here use it up. In the future look for other race driven companies to push the envelope with alternative fueled cars for the sports enthusiast.
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Joined: Mar 2008
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From: Brandon, FL, US
my father works in the fuel industry so i see alot of this firsthand, and i'm surprised nobody has touched on this point
while adding 85% of ethanol to a fuel with a certain octane rating will net a higher octane, do you really think that fuel companies will give away free octane?
as an arbitrary number, if you added 85% of ethanol to 87 octane and it yielded 93 octane rating, why would the fuel company sell you 93+ethanol?
i'm sure the race teams are running much different fuels, like they normally do, then what can be had at the pump, so while you'll still be getting certain improvements mentioned in this thread, i don't think you'll be getting a final 100+ octane rating at the pump
while adding 85% of ethanol to a fuel with a certain octane rating will net a higher octane, do you really think that fuel companies will give away free octane?
as an arbitrary number, if you added 85% of ethanol to 87 octane and it yielded 93 octane rating, why would the fuel company sell you 93+ethanol?
i'm sure the race teams are running much different fuels, like they normally do, then what can be had at the pump, so while you'll still be getting certain improvements mentioned in this thread, i don't think you'll be getting a final 100+ octane rating at the pump
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From: Orange County, CA
Re: (jlude90)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jlude90 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i'm sure the race teams are running much different fuels, like they normally do, then what can be had at the pump, so while you'll still be getting certain improvements mentioned in this thread, i don't think you'll be getting a final 100+ octane rating at the pump</TD></TR></TABLE>
The first thing we need to know is that E85, the most common of the ethanol fuel blends, is actually three fuel grades. Class 1 or "pure" E85 contains 80 to 84 percent ethanol, while the remainder of the blend is commercial-grade (around 85 pump octane) gasoline. Class 2 or E75 is 75 to 79 percent ethanol, while Class 3 or E70 is 70 to 74 percent ethanol. However, all three classes of fuel may be marketed as E85 at various times during the year. While it seems confusing, this is done mainly to offer better cold-starting performance-which is a problem with ethanol fuels. Since straight ethanol has a relatively low Reid vapor pressure (meaning it doesn't like to light off at low temperatures), greater percentages of gasoline are added to the blend for colder weather. So while E85 is often described as 105 pump octane, its actual rating can vary depending upon the seasonal blend. Naturally, higher gasoline content will tend to lower the pump octane from 105 for "pure" E85 to perhaps 100 for E75-though these figures are approximations, it is important to note. Since ethanol is relatively new on the consumer scene, it is just not as thoroughly documented or standardized as gasoline. This is why, in part, you may see E85 described as anywhere from 100 to 106 octane. – HOT ROD Magazine
Depending on composition and source, E85 has an octane rating of 100 - 105[4] compared to regular gasoline's typical rating of 87 - 93. This allows it to be used in higher compression engines which tend to produce more power per unit of displacement than their gasoline counterparts. Since the reciprocating mass of the engine increases in proportion to the displacement of the engine E85 has a higher potential efficiency for an engine of equal power. – wikipedia
The first thing we need to know is that E85, the most common of the ethanol fuel blends, is actually three fuel grades. Class 1 or "pure" E85 contains 80 to 84 percent ethanol, while the remainder of the blend is commercial-grade (around 85 pump octane) gasoline. Class 2 or E75 is 75 to 79 percent ethanol, while Class 3 or E70 is 70 to 74 percent ethanol. However, all three classes of fuel may be marketed as E85 at various times during the year. While it seems confusing, this is done mainly to offer better cold-starting performance-which is a problem with ethanol fuels. Since straight ethanol has a relatively low Reid vapor pressure (meaning it doesn't like to light off at low temperatures), greater percentages of gasoline are added to the blend for colder weather. So while E85 is often described as 105 pump octane, its actual rating can vary depending upon the seasonal blend. Naturally, higher gasoline content will tend to lower the pump octane from 105 for "pure" E85 to perhaps 100 for E75-though these figures are approximations, it is important to note. Since ethanol is relatively new on the consumer scene, it is just not as thoroughly documented or standardized as gasoline. This is why, in part, you may see E85 described as anywhere from 100 to 106 octane. – HOT ROD Magazine
Depending on composition and source, E85 has an octane rating of 100 - 105[4] compared to regular gasoline's typical rating of 87 - 93. This allows it to be used in higher compression engines which tend to produce more power per unit of displacement than their gasoline counterparts. Since the reciprocating mass of the engine increases in proportion to the displacement of the engine E85 has a higher potential efficiency for an engine of equal power. – wikipedia
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From: Chicago
Re:
Fwiw, a thread was recently posted in the AM forum regarding this.
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread/2351459
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MikeySpec »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I just did quick little back to back test on 93 octane vs. E85 the other day and thought i'd share the results. The engine is a large displacement K with mild compression. I think i was roughly 12.5:1. I wont get into details on the engine, i would just like to share and discuss the power differences between the two gasolines.
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https://honda-tech.com/zerothread/2351459
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MikeySpec »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I just did quick little back to back test on 93 octane vs. E85 the other day and thought i'd share the results. The engine is a large displacement K with mild compression. I think i was roughly 12.5:1. I wont get into details on the engine, i would just like to share and discuss the power differences between the two gasolines.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
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RacingReadyDan
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