For those of you at Expo 8 and getting passed by Endicott...
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For those of you at Expo 8 and getting passed by Endicott...
I read some replies in the RSX expo thread about how getting passed by Endicott was "bad" at times due to him being so fast compared to the others. Well, I figured I'd make a new post so you could see the video of a Chin day I was at back in December with Lou Gigliotti and his World Challenge Corvette that was out there with me. Thought you might be interested if you thought that was bad. This was in the advanced/instructor group.
.JPG)
I don't think I got passed in this particualr video but this is what was on track with me that day.
One word. INSANE! And have your speakers up because this thing sounds AWESOME! Lou said he was running a 45% restricator place on a the Vette board he posted this on so he's not even running full power.!!!
This is sick stuff. Oh, and he was just testing tires and he's still going fast as hell. lol And at 6:45 I think you'll spy a Nascar.
AND PAY SPECIAL ATTENTION to the Miata pass at 10:50. SEE YA!!! HOLY ****!!! A perfect example of how fast things can catch you out there so like I said in the other thread you gotta be watching your mirrors in Advanced. Jesus.
ENJOY! I had forgotten how awesome this is to watch. I would kill for the dogbox.
http://www.lgmracing.com/lgm-0721-sebringtt.wmv
And I'm not trying to start any arguments. Just thought if you thought Endicott was bad then you'll think this is REALLY bad. lol Plus you get to see a badass car in action at a DE event.
Modified by 96 SOHC VTEC at 7:07 PM 7/14/2008
I don't think I got passed in this particualr video but this is what was on track with me that day.
One word. INSANE! And have your speakers up because this thing sounds AWESOME! Lou said he was running a 45% restricator place on a the Vette board he posted this on so he's not even running full power.!!!
This is sick stuff. Oh, and he was just testing tires and he's still going fast as hell. lol And at 6:45 I think you'll spy a Nascar.
AND PAY SPECIAL ATTENTION to the Miata pass at 10:50. SEE YA!!! HOLY ****!!! A perfect example of how fast things can catch you out there so like I said in the other thread you gotta be watching your mirrors in Advanced. Jesus.
ENJOY! I had forgotten how awesome this is to watch. I would kill for the dogbox.
http://www.lgmracing.com/lgm-0721-sebringtt.wmv
And I'm not trying to start any arguments. Just thought if you thought Endicott was bad then you'll think this is REALLY bad. lol Plus you get to see a badass car in action at a DE event.
Modified by 96 SOHC VTEC at 7:07 PM 7/14/2008
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Re: (Bbasso)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bbasso »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Are you saying that video was during a HPDE?
BOY I'D PISSED!!!
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes. Why would you be pissed? This was in the advanced/instructor group and with Chin they take it pretty seriously to get into the group. And from what I can tell Lou obeyed the point-by. I like having stuff like this out there because it makes you pay more attention and drive harder trying to lose one despite having no chance.
Here is my in-car video of the Vette passing me at 7:36.
http://videos.streetfire.net/v...0.htm
Modified by 96 SOHC VTEC at 8:12 PM 7/14/2008
BOY I'D PISSED!!!
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes. Why would you be pissed? This was in the advanced/instructor group and with Chin they take it pretty seriously to get into the group. And from what I can tell Lou obeyed the point-by. I like having stuff like this out there because it makes you pay more attention and drive harder trying to lose one despite having no chance.
Here is my in-car video of the Vette passing me at 7:36.
http://videos.streetfire.net/v...0.htm
Modified by 96 SOHC VTEC at 8:12 PM 7/14/2008
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Re: (96 SOHC VTEC)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 96 SOHC VTEC »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Yes. Why would you be pissed? </TD></TR></TABLE>
The un- needed risk of having a car like that on track, It posses a high risk to the drivers, Adv or Intr. Our cars are like sitting ducks just waiting for that missle to slam in the back of our "DOT GOV" safe cars... Like My POS R can stand an impact by that at those speeds.
Yeah one mistake by him, a HPDE driver or mechanical failure and a person is hurt or dead.
I would have asked for my money back or insisted he leave...
UNSAFE.
Yes. Why would you be pissed? </TD></TR></TABLE>
The un- needed risk of having a car like that on track, It posses a high risk to the drivers, Adv or Intr. Our cars are like sitting ducks just waiting for that missle to slam in the back of our "DOT GOV" safe cars... Like My POS R can stand an impact by that at those speeds.
Yeah one mistake by him, a HPDE driver or mechanical failure and a person is hurt or dead.
I would have asked for my money back or insisted he leave...
UNSAFE.
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Re: (Bbasso)
And how would I explain to my Ins Co if he did hit my car?
"Well sir I was doing a HPDE and Lou Gigliotti and his World Challenge Corvette side swipped me in turn 4. He did stop and exhange info but since it's a race car..."
"Well sir I was doing a HPDE and Lou Gigliotti and his World Challenge Corvette side swipped me in turn 4. He did stop and exhange info but since it's a race car..."
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Re: (Bbasso)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bbasso »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">And how would I explain to my Ins Co if he did hit my car?
"Well sir I was doing a HPDE and Lou Gigliotti and his World Challenge Corvette side swipped me in turn 4. He did stop and exhange info but since it's a race car..." </TD></TR></TABLE>
lol I'm not trying to be an *** but you pretty much assume risks like this when you sign up for an HDPE. If those kind of cars bother you can always request to run in the Intermediate group and if they were in your group they're still not supposed to pass without a signal.
As long as you watch your mirrors frequently and plan passes it's not bad at all to be out there with faster cars IMO.
Modified by 96 SOHC VTEC at 8:31 PM 7/14/2008
"Well sir I was doing a HPDE and Lou Gigliotti and his World Challenge Corvette side swipped me in turn 4. He did stop and exhange info but since it's a race car..."
</TD></TR></TABLE>lol I'm not trying to be an *** but you pretty much assume risks like this when you sign up for an HDPE. If those kind of cars bother you can always request to run in the Intermediate group and if they were in your group they're still not supposed to pass without a signal.
As long as you watch your mirrors frequently and plan passes it's not bad at all to be out there with faster cars IMO.
Modified by 96 SOHC VTEC at 8:31 PM 7/14/2008
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Re: (96 SOHC VTEC)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 96 SOHC VTEC »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
lol I'm not trying to be an *** but you pretty much assume risks like this when you sign up for an HDPE. And if those kind of cars bother you can always request to run in the Intermediate group. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I fully understand the risks, but why add more like a heat seaking scud HPDE= High Performance Drivers Education or Event, Usually the cars involved are similar in performance, that was a hazard, not a risk.
My suggestion woudl be for him to have his own run group, and people wanted to run with him- ok. but having his own run group should not cut into the time of those who are doing the HPDE.
lol I'm not trying to be an *** but you pretty much assume risks like this when you sign up for an HDPE. And if those kind of cars bother you can always request to run in the Intermediate group. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I fully understand the risks, but why add more like a heat seaking scud
HPDE= High Performance Drivers Education or Event, Usually the cars involved are similar in performance, that was a hazard, not a risk. My suggestion woudl be for him to have his own run group, and people wanted to run with him- ok. but having his own run group should not cut into the time of those who are doing the HPDE.
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Re: (96 SOHC VTEC)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 96 SOHC VTEC »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
As long as you watch your mirrors frequently and plan passes it's not bad at all to be out there with faster cars IMO.
Modified by 96 SOHC VTEC at 8:31 PM 7/14/2008</TD></TR></TABLE>
Just don't see my point, then you can drive with him or the likes...
I wouldn't, It's not safe.
End.
As long as you watch your mirrors frequently and plan passes it's not bad at all to be out there with faster cars IMO.
Modified by 96 SOHC VTEC at 8:31 PM 7/14/2008</TD></TR></TABLE>
Just don't see my point, then you can drive with him or the likes...
I wouldn't, It's not safe.
End.
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Re: (Bbasso)
Sorry, Rob, but I disagree. And what I'm about to say is true of pretty much all track events, not just the Expo or Chin's (both of which I've driven in).
Track events have rules. The rules in HPDE events include the need for a signal given by the car being passed, before the car behind it can proceed to pass. The purpose of that rule is that a pass doesn't take place until both cars know that it's going to happen. So there is no side-by-side unless both drivers are okay with it.
If one car (driver) is a whole lot faster than another, that doesn't change the rules at all. The faster car knows the rules, and cannot pass until he gets a signal. He also can't HIT the car in front of him, as you seem to imply. IT IS SAFE as long as both cars follow the rules. A passing driver knows he must slow down when approaching another car, until the other car gives him a passing signal. (The rules also require courtesy, which means not running two inches off another car's bumper. Some of this is common sense.)
Granted, it's up to the event organizers to set up the run groups so that the fastest cars (drivers) run together, etc. And that way, the fastest cars tend to end up driving among the most experienced drivers, which has a tendency to reduce the disparity of speeds within a run group. But there's no reason you can't put a much faster car on the track at the same time, as long as he follows the rules.
The issue with Endicott was NOT that he was faster than the other cars; it was that there was some infraction of the rules; someone commented that he passed some cars on the cool-down lap, which is a no-no.
(One of the explicit rules in the advanced/instructor group at the Chin Motorsports events is that point-bys are required, as elsewhere, but (a) passing can take place anywhere, not just in designated passing zones, and (b) point-bys are EXPECTED by drivers in that run group, i.e. it's expected that everyone is watching their mirrors enough of the time to give quick signals, so that no one should be forced to have to wait for a passing signal, ever. This distinguishes it from the other Chin run groups and the run groups at the ITR Expo. But again, it's just a matter of everyone having a common understanding of, and adherence to, the rules.)
Track events have rules. The rules in HPDE events include the need for a signal given by the car being passed, before the car behind it can proceed to pass. The purpose of that rule is that a pass doesn't take place until both cars know that it's going to happen. So there is no side-by-side unless both drivers are okay with it.
If one car (driver) is a whole lot faster than another, that doesn't change the rules at all. The faster car knows the rules, and cannot pass until he gets a signal. He also can't HIT the car in front of him, as you seem to imply. IT IS SAFE as long as both cars follow the rules. A passing driver knows he must slow down when approaching another car, until the other car gives him a passing signal. (The rules also require courtesy, which means not running two inches off another car's bumper. Some of this is common sense.)
Granted, it's up to the event organizers to set up the run groups so that the fastest cars (drivers) run together, etc. And that way, the fastest cars tend to end up driving among the most experienced drivers, which has a tendency to reduce the disparity of speeds within a run group. But there's no reason you can't put a much faster car on the track at the same time, as long as he follows the rules.
The issue with Endicott was NOT that he was faster than the other cars; it was that there was some infraction of the rules; someone commented that he passed some cars on the cool-down lap, which is a no-no.
(One of the explicit rules in the advanced/instructor group at the Chin Motorsports events is that point-bys are required, as elsewhere, but (a) passing can take place anywhere, not just in designated passing zones, and (b) point-bys are EXPECTED by drivers in that run group, i.e. it's expected that everyone is watching their mirrors enough of the time to give quick signals, so that no one should be forced to have to wait for a passing signal, ever. This distinguishes it from the other Chin run groups and the run groups at the ITR Expo. But again, it's just a matter of everyone having a common understanding of, and adherence to, the rules.)
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Re: (Bbasso)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bbasso »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
or Usually the cars involved are similar in performance, that was a hazard, not a risk.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
What group do you normally run with? I've done over 30 events at Chin and I've yet to see a run group where everything was similiar in performance. If anything it's just the opposite. You typically see Miata's, Neon's, Civic's, Mini Coopers paired out there with GT3's, Z06's, Ferrari's, you name it. I don't see how a Miata is similiar in performance to a new Z06 or new GT3. Unless you run specific DE's like Expo or something most other clubs allow all kinds of street cars.
or Usually the cars involved are similar in performance, that was a hazard, not a risk.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
What group do you normally run with? I've done over 30 events at Chin and I've yet to see a run group where everything was similiar in performance. If anything it's just the opposite. You typically see Miata's, Neon's, Civic's, Mini Coopers paired out there with GT3's, Z06's, Ferrari's, you name it. I don't see how a Miata is similiar in performance to a new Z06 or new GT3. Unless you run specific DE's like Expo or something most other clubs allow all kinds of street cars.
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Re: (96 SOHC VTEC)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 96 SOHC VTEC »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What group do you normally run with? I've done over 30 events at Chin and I've yet to see a run group where everything was similiar in performance. If anything it's just the opposite. You typically see Miata's, Neon's, Civic's, Mini Coopers paired out there with GT3's, Z06's, Ferrari's, you name it. I don't see how a Miata is similiar in performance to a new Z06 or new GT3. Unless you run specific DE's like Expo or something most other clubs allow all kinds of street cars. </TD></TR></TABLE>
It's also worth pointing out that, in HPDE events, driver skill is often a much more important determinant of speed than the car itself. An experienced driver in a slower car is almost always faster than an inexperienced driver in a faster car.
It's also worth pointing out that, in HPDE events, driver skill is often a much more important determinant of speed than the car itself. An experienced driver in a slower car is almost always faster than an inexperienced driver in a faster car.
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Re: (nsxtasy)
Ken you are telling me you are completely OK with a car which was built with safety for the driver first being hurled around the track at double and possibly triple our speed while our cars can barley take a 5mph hit w/o sustaining major damage?
In other words, would you have put your *** and the NSX or R in that position?
Did you see all of the video?
I know it's very hard to see every point by, but I'm sure there was some over-taking w/o point bys and then the three wide on the straight...
Like I said before, I'd not go out and especially in a lower group since I worked and earned the right to be in the Inst group.
My .02 ...
In other words, would you have put your *** and the NSX or R in that position?
Did you see all of the video?
I know it's very hard to see every point by, but I'm sure there was some over-taking w/o point bys and then the three wide on the straight...
Like I said before, I'd not go out and especially in a lower group since I worked and earned the right to be in the Inst group.
My .02 ...
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Re: (96 SOHC VTEC)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 96 SOHC VTEC »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
What group do you normally run with? </TD></TR></TABLE>
Instructor.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 96 SOHC VTEC »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I've done over 30 events at Chin and I've yet to see a run group where everything was similiar in performance. If anything it's just the opposite. You typically see Miata's, Neon's, Civic's, Mini Coopers paired out there with GT3's, Z06's, Ferrari's, you name it. I don't see how a Miata is similiar in performance to a new Z06 or new GT3. Unless you run specific DE's like Expo or something most other clubs allow all kinds of street cars. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Similar perfomance, was went to mean Production cars / street , not full blown racing cars.
There is a big difference between the two. Other then the obvious speed/brakes and such... I'm talking about how safe the driver is. Lets use Lou's vette and Ken's NSX as examples...
Hrmmm full cage with no exspense or technology spared in the vette.
Hrmmm Our Gov's standards for the NSX.
a crash at 130 in the NSX, Ken would probably be dead.
a crash at 130 in the vette, Lou would probably be driving another vette with in 15 mins...
So imagine this, Lou accidently crashes into Ken...
Modified by Bbasso at 12:16 AM 7/15/2008
What group do you normally run with? </TD></TR></TABLE>
Instructor.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 96 SOHC VTEC »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I've done over 30 events at Chin and I've yet to see a run group where everything was similiar in performance. If anything it's just the opposite. You typically see Miata's, Neon's, Civic's, Mini Coopers paired out there with GT3's, Z06's, Ferrari's, you name it. I don't see how a Miata is similiar in performance to a new Z06 or new GT3. Unless you run specific DE's like Expo or something most other clubs allow all kinds of street cars. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Similar perfomance, was went to mean Production cars / street , not full blown racing cars.
There is a big difference between the two. Other then the obvious speed/brakes and such... I'm talking about how safe the driver is. Lets use Lou's vette and Ken's NSX as examples...
Hrmmm full cage with no exspense or technology spared in the vette.
Hrmmm Our Gov's standards for the NSX.
a crash at 130 in the NSX, Ken would probably be dead.
a crash at 130 in the vette, Lou would probably be driving another vette with in 15 mins...
So imagine this, Lou accidently crashes into Ken...
Modified by Bbasso at 12:16 AM 7/15/2008
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Re: (Bbasso)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bbasso »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ken you are telling me you are completely OK with a car which was built with safety for the driver first being hurled around the track at double and possibly triple our speed while our cars can barley take a 5mph hit w/o sustaining major damage?
In other words, would you have put your *** and the NSX or R in that position?
Did you see all of the video?
I know it's very hard to see every point by, but I'm sure there was some over-taking w/o point bys and then the three wide on the straight...
Like I said before, I'd not go out and especially in a lower group since I worked and earned the right to be in the Inst group.
My .02 ...
</TD></TR></TABLE>
your "right" to be in the instructor group? if you are skilled enough to be instructing, that's just where you belong..
I'd say you should just stick with groups that don't do this or allow these kinds of cars out there if it makes you uncomfortable (although that seems to be less and less as some groups find it harder to fill their participant and instructor groups)..
I have to agree with Ken on this one.. it may seem alarming to you, but there isn't any reason your car and his car couldn't co-exist on track.. if he was dive bombing you into corners it would be one thing, but if not, there's no reason not to.. there are often huge speed differentials between cars in HPDE's - in advanced/instructor groups especially.. a guy with a Viper and a guy with a CRX are going to face this same issue.. many groups have open passing with point by in that group at various tracks..
at ITR Expo 7 we had various fully built race cars out in the run groups and there was a big speed differential in some cases.. no one seemed to mind that..? if someone told me I couldn't run my race car in the instructor group, I just wouldn't be attending (if I was planning to instruct).. as long as everyone is following the rules I don't know what the problem is..
In other words, would you have put your *** and the NSX or R in that position?
Did you see all of the video?
I know it's very hard to see every point by, but I'm sure there was some over-taking w/o point bys and then the three wide on the straight...
Like I said before, I'd not go out and especially in a lower group since I worked and earned the right to be in the Inst group.
My .02 ...
</TD></TR></TABLE>
your "right" to be in the instructor group? if you are skilled enough to be instructing, that's just where you belong..
I'd say you should just stick with groups that don't do this or allow these kinds of cars out there if it makes you uncomfortable (although that seems to be less and less as some groups find it harder to fill their participant and instructor groups).. I have to agree with Ken on this one.. it may seem alarming to you, but there isn't any reason your car and his car couldn't co-exist on track.. if he was dive bombing you into corners it would be one thing, but if not, there's no reason not to.. there are often huge speed differentials between cars in HPDE's - in advanced/instructor groups especially.. a guy with a Viper and a guy with a CRX are going to face this same issue.. many groups have open passing with point by in that group at various tracks..
at ITR Expo 7 we had various fully built race cars out in the run groups and there was a big speed differential in some cases.. no one seemed to mind that..? if someone told me I couldn't run my race car in the instructor group, I just wouldn't be attending (if I was planning to instruct).. as long as everyone is following the rules I don't know what the problem is..
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Re: For those of you at Expo 8 and getting passed by Endicott... (Bbasso)
I was far more concerned about Don blowing my doors off than Bob, but neither one passed me without a point by. I don't have a problem with him running in these types of groups as long as he obeys the rules. Heck put an F1 car out there for all I care as long as everyone is competent and paying attention.
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Re: For those of you at Expo 8 and getting passed by Endicott... (Bbasso)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bbasso »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Then I must be getting old... 
Oh well. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Here you go, buddy.
It's because we care. 
Oh well.
</TD></TR></TABLE>Here you go, buddy.
It's because we care.