Hey, my friend in Rochester, MN has an EF Hatch with a freshly built Poorman's ITR swap, and the axles in it seem to be too long. I don't know much about EF/DA Hondas. Help us figure this out!



When the car is lowered (Omni coilovers), the car will vibrate when a fews things are happening: When the engine is under load, and when he's turning.
*This hatch wasn't slammed or tucking the wheels; the tops of the tires were basically level with the fenders.

This vibration mimics his speed; speed as in MPH not RPM, so it's not from the Hasport engine mounts. The axles that came with the car are in fine condition, so the problem isn't that the axles need to be replaced because of bad joints.

He said that ~90% of this vibration seemed to have went away when he raised the car up to -almost- stock ride height (3 to 4 fingers of "fender gap").

The car's transmission is a cable trans case with '96 USDM Integra Type R gear set and OEM LSD inside, a hybrid setup in new condition.

Wheels and tires are 195/60R14 rt-215 Azenis mounted on Mugen MR5's

Any Swapped EF Gurus out there with some answers?


Modified by Josh C. at 8:53 AM 6/27/2008

 

wow first off that swap and car look nasty! very nice indeed. have you removed the dust seals from inside the back of the hubs? what intermediate shaft are you using?

 

No, we haven't cleaned those out, but it's hard to believe that some dust and grime could keep an axle from sliding in all the way, or prevent it from being fully seated, especially with the axle nut being torqued on the other side... Intermediate shaft? Not sure, I will find out tomorrow after making a call.

Anyone else?


Modified by Josh C. at 8:46 AM 6/27/2008

 

well with the dust shields its not a matter of cleaning them or the area of the hub out, they simply need to be removed, especially on a lowered ef. it gives the axles just that much more room to seat into the hub. Usually not an issue when your car is about stock ride height but it can cause problems if the cars lowered. The axles end up being pushed together and cause them to bind up, which may be where the vibration is coming from.

From what i've read thus far everyone has said to use a DA intermediate shaft, and DA axles on b swapped EFs because they are the proper length and you don't have issues with binding then. Now since your assuming you have the stock b18c1 intermediate shaft and you're using the c1 axles with it i wouldn't think there would be a problem. However like i said i've never seen someone say this setup would work, but i haven't heard they wouldn't either. this may or may not be your problem but someone else would have to chime in to verify this.

 

The axles in that swap are not from a b18c. Stop posting wrong info and use your own pictures. I already told the new owner via email what axles are in the car. One thing you could try if you can't find another intermediate shaft is try running Integra upper and lower control arms. They are slightly longer than the civic ones that are on the car. I used the civic ones so I wouldn't have tire rubbing issues, as I was eventually going to run wider wheels and tires for the track.

Also, the car is going to have vibrations no matter what. The mounts have the hardest poly insterts Hasport sells, the suspension bushing are poly and the tires have very hard sidewalls.

 

I have a b18c swap with a JDM b16 (J1) cable trans. I'm using a 90-91 intermediate shaft and 90-91 axles. My car is lowered 2.3" in the front and 1.6" in the back using RSR springs and GR-2 struts. One other thing, I'm running 91 EX hubs but I have run 91 integra hubs.

You definitely have to remove the dust seals from the hubs.

Maybe I did not catch this but what axles, hub, and intermediate shaft are you using?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by civicandy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">use your own pictures.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Done.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by civicandy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I already told the new owner via email what axles are in the car.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thanks, I'll call him and find out.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by civicandy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">One thing you could try if you can't find another intermediate shaft is try running Integra upper and lower control arms. They are slightly longer than the civic ones that are on the car. I used the civic ones so I wouldn't have tire rubbing issues, as I was eventually going to run wider wheels and tires for the track.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thanks for the tip yo! I'll see if I can pick some up for him.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by civicandy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Also, the car is going to have vibrations no matter what. The mounts have the hardest poly insterts Hasport sells, the suspension bushing are poly and the tires have very hard sidewalls.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Most of the vibration went away when he lifted the car up a few inches. The vibration becomes more apparent when turning, and its only when the axles are moving; in gear; and under load.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by civicandy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Stop posting wrong info</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's a funny request seeing as how you just advised him to waste time and money on integra control arms WHEN even tho DA UCAs + LCAs might fit... the alignment (caster specifically) is HORRIBLY wrong when you use those components.

http://www.ef-honda.com/ben/EFhybridsus.php

Read and learn before YOU post more wrong info.

The correct thing to do is to get Raxles made for the swap. No ifs ands or buts about it. I had the same exact issue, vibration would disappear when the car was raised but at desired ride height something in the driveline was binding... particularly harsh/noticable at 30-35 mph.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ComeOnKip &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

That's a funny request seeing as how you just advised him to waste time and money on integra control arms WHEN even tho DA UCAs + LCAs might fit... the alignment (caster specifically) is HORRIBLY wrong when you use those components.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't agree. I had a full set of DA and a full set of EF suspension components and the upper and lower LCA's are roughly 3/8" long, otherwise the LCA and UCA's are identical. Plus, the car has DA spindles and brakes, so the geometry would be the same as the DA. If you use just the DA LCA's, you end up with too much negative camber. If you use the DA UCA, you can't lower it as much because the arm can hit the inner fender if the car is really low. You can buy raxels, or you can make it work with OEM parts.

 

I disagree. Set the UCAs from a DA next to an EF and you'll see that while retaining the same split from mounting bolts... the UBJ is offset differently between the two. I know first hand because my vision control arms off my DA would not work correctly with my EF. But... if the difference is such that you don't notice, i suppose its a fiesable method. But i'd rather buy one new part then spend time sifting through oem parts to come up with a combo that works in both aspects.

 

I agree with you that the the UCA is different. Just like most guys though, I stuck with the civic arms. As far as axels go, almost everybody on the EF threads runs oem axels unless they have high hp applications. Aren't the vision arms designed specifically to give negative camber?

 

adjustable for lowered applications. but camber isn't the angle to worry about, the difference in the caster alone is enough to worry me. Most people do run OEM axles, but I tried a GABILLION different axles, OEM from the dealership, AZ, Napas, even a set of DSS stage 1s, and nothing seemed to get rid of the bind. The raxle units i installed were noticeable shorter, not monumentally but about an inch. perfect fit, ridiculous QC on the product. it was $350 that could have saved me $600-800 on buying axles that didn't work.

 

Cameron, the new owner of civicandy's ef hatch, is about to buy some raxle's axles... any other ideas?

There was axle grease all over from the trip home (4 hours of driving) with the way that the car was set up when he bought it. So maybe Cameron's axles are actually too short?

 

I definitely agree on Raxles. A top notch company.

 

I believe the axles are too short, but I'm sure that the people at raxles will be able to get me the right set up. The axle grease on the fire wall is a little interesting though, most of the mechanics that have looked at it or driven it say that the axles are too short and that is what is causing the vibration

 

I like your picture by the way

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EFaction &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I like your picture by the way</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, everyone, I have stolen yet another picture of this car... it belongs to the Facebook page of EFaction / Cameron...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EFaction &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I believe the axles are too short, but I'm sure that the people at raxles will be able to get me the right set up. The axle grease on the fire wall is a little interesting though, most of the mechanics that have looked at it or driven it say that the axles are too short and that is what is causing the vibration </TD></TR></TABLE>

The vibration is caused the out joint bouncing into the hub. The axles are too long. When you raised the car up, the vibration lessened because the inner joints were able to articulate ie move back and forth.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mar778c &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

The vibration is caused by the outer joint bouncing towards the hub. The axles are too long. When you raised the car up, the vibration lessened because the inner joints were able to articulate ie move back and forth.</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's what I thought too, but why the axle grease without an accompanying ripped or cracked cv joint boot?

Can someone here tell me the differences between the 90-93 Integra axles/intermediate shaft and the Raxles axles/intermediate shaft?


Modified by Josh C. at 10:15 PM 6/28/2008

 

Make sure you don't have the jdm half shaft, the odd one. Its to long and causes axle binding.

Its not that difficult.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mar778c &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I definitely agree on Raxles. A top notch company.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Why would you run raxles when oem or autozone axles work fine.

 

You need an american half shaft, and axles from a DA. Not that hard really, have all those and you will be set.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 90blackcrx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Why would you run raxles when oem or autozone axles work fine.</TD></TR></TABLE>
What's the difference between your preferred oem/autozone setup and the Raxles setup? What is different or better about the Raxles that makes people spend more for and want the oem setups more?

 

Yes I suppose it would be good to know the difference between the OEM axles and raxles also the cv boot is not ripped that was the first thing I checked

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 90blackcrx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Why would you run raxles when oem or autozone axles work fine.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

1st, the difference in the boots. The raxle boot is alot stronger than the OEM. 2nd, the shafts and cv joints are made from a stronger grade of steel than the OEM. They can handle alot more abuse. Mine have seen a variety of set-ups and levels of whp.

I've had OEM and Reman boots break under a full season of autocrossing, drag racing, and DD. I've put a set of Raxles under same the regime with a significant increase in whp and the boots and axles have not broken nor bound in 3 yrs. I've had OEM break when I've launched at 6500 rpm with slicks. My Raxles have never had a problem when I launch at any rpm.

OEM and Reman are ok but Raxles are a lot better. It was worth the $300 bucks I paid at the time.


Modified by mar778c at 12:58 AM 6/29/2008

 

Like I said earlier and 90blackcrx is saying, get a 90-91 DA intermediate and 90-91 axles and you will be set. If you want to give your self some more assurance then get the Raxle axles.