HHC Fuel (Hydro Fuel) Discussion and Ideas
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HHO Fuel (Hydro Fuel) Discussion and Ideas
Ok with the gas prices going up, i was looking at future alternative sources of power in cars. I came across HHO Fuel or Hydrogen Gas fuel hybrid units that can be installed into any vehicle. This is fairly new to me but probably has been around for a while now. My question is, a unit advertised like the MagDrives, does it really increase your fuel efficiency 40-60%??
I was studying their units that they provide and i do not see anywhere on there on how they control the AFR output that the O2 reads out. More oxygen is being introduced when using hydro gases thus reading leaner on the O2 sensors which in turns feeds more fuel into the engine from the ecu.
Am i missing something here?
Now of course i could hook up my EMS and tune based on that. But for the ordinary person, i don't see how this will benefit, unless they compensate for the 02 readings back to the ECU.
This is the website on which i got my info from.
http://www.fuelfromh2o.com/
I am no scientist, but could anyone make this system at home with the basic/common household materials?
Anyone here ever built a HHO Generator?
I believe honda is coming out with a Hydrogen Hybrid vehicle pretty soon, be interesting on how it performs.
*Note: The Thread Title is suppose to be HHO, not HHC...proofreading owns me
Modified by iBrandon at 11:45 AM 6/17/2008
I was studying their units that they provide and i do not see anywhere on there on how they control the AFR output that the O2 reads out. More oxygen is being introduced when using hydro gases thus reading leaner on the O2 sensors which in turns feeds more fuel into the engine from the ecu.
Am i missing something here?
Now of course i could hook up my EMS and tune based on that. But for the ordinary person, i don't see how this will benefit, unless they compensate for the 02 readings back to the ECU.
This is the website on which i got my info from.
http://www.fuelfromh2o.com/
I am no scientist, but could anyone make this system at home with the basic/common household materials?
Anyone here ever built a HHO Generator?
I believe honda is coming out with a Hydrogen Hybrid vehicle pretty soon, be interesting on how it performs.
*Note: The Thread Title is suppose to be HHO, not HHC...proofreading owns me
Modified by iBrandon at 11:45 AM 6/17/2008
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Re: HHO Fuel (Hydro Fuel) Discussion and Ideas (iBrandon)
I'm a research engineer, you can take my word for it, or you can go around looking like an idiot with all the other sensationalists who have no understanding of the science involved.
If it were that easy, it would have always been done that way.
There is no government/automaker/opec/anybody conspiracy keeping the fuel economy of vehicles where they are. It is the laws of physics and thermodynamics. That's it. Bigger heavier cars get bad fuel milage, there's no secret to improving it.
By the second law of thermodynamics it will clearly take more energy to split the water into hydrogen and oxygen than you can ever possibly get by burning it.
The laws of thermodynamics are UNDEFEATABLE. There are really no examples in the universe that refute them.
The energy to split the water into hydrogen and oxygen comes from electricity generated by your alternator, which is powered by your engine, which is powered by gasoline. Every time you convert energy from one from to another, there are losses associated with that conversion. So you loose energy going from gas to engine, to alternator, to electricity, to water, to hydrogen. When you burn the hydrogen, even IF it was 100% efficient, you wouldn't get as much power out of it as it took just to split it. SO basically you end up wasting fuel to split water and mess up your engine.
If you want to save gas, the answer HAS ALWAYS BEEN drive a smaller car with a smaller engine.
This is the same as when fat people start raving about some *** clown diet where if you eat 46 pounds of cottage cheese and nothing else for a week you'll loose 5 pounds. Guess what fatty? The answer HAS ALWAYS BEEN AND WILL ALWAYS BE eat less and exercise more.
There is no secret, there is no conspiracy, the automakers are not hiding any technology. Think about it, if this worked, why wouldn't every automaker put it on their cars right now in order to sell more and put other people out of business? Automakers don't make money on oil.
ugh
[/rant]
Re: HHO Fuel (Niles)
You are forgetting a very important factor: profit. The reason gas mileage has not significantly improved is not because of size of vehicles. It has more to do with manufacturing profitable vehicles than technology. Conventional, IC engines can be improved considerably but the effort for the past 30 years has been lacking. Some of this lacking is due to poor vision by american auto makers, no emphasis by law makers, lobbyist etc.
Modified by mar778c at 9:58 PM 6/17/2008
Modified by mar778c at 9:58 PM 6/17/2008
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Re: HHO Fuel (mar778c)
Well there are two new cars now put out by Honda, the Honda Civic GX NGV, which runs off of compressed natural gas, and the FCX Clarity which runs off of Hydrogen fuel cells.
My guess if these cars become more popular, we may see more and more hydrogen and compressed natural gas vehicles on the road in the near future.
My uncle told me his buddy bought one of those compressed natural gas cars and filled up for little under $5 (which i find hard to believe) and got nearly 250 miles on it. But thats impressive for the cost ratio.
Im curious what the future of Automotive racing will be like, when gasoline is an arm and a leg.
My guess if these cars become more popular, we may see more and more hydrogen and compressed natural gas vehicles on the road in the near future.
My uncle told me his buddy bought one of those compressed natural gas cars and filled up for little under $5 (which i find hard to believe) and got nearly 250 miles on it. But thats impressive for the cost ratio.
Im curious what the future of Automotive racing will be like, when gasoline is an arm and a leg.
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From: Baltimore, MD, USA
Re: HHO Fuel (iBrandon)
LOL I built one of those setups to convert water to hydrogen, it took near 180 amps (12v) to create enough H to burn a flame similar to a bic lighter. The amount of electrical load needed to create enough volume of H to run a car, or even as a supplement to gas would be immense. Cool science fair project Yes, anything more that isn't practical.
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Re: HHO Fuel (mar778c)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mar778c »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You are forgetting a very important factor: profit. The reason gas mileage has not significantly improved is not because of size of vehicles. It has more to do with manufacturing profitable vehicles than technology. Conventional, IC engines can be improved considerably but the effort for the past 30 years has been lacking. Some of this lacking is due to poor vision by american auto makers, no emphasis by law makers, lobbyist etc.
Modified by mar778c at 9:58 PM 6/17/2008</TD></TR></TABLE>
Are you kidding? Or insane? In the past 30 years we've seen the demise of carburettors, then the move from TBI to mulitport sequential injection, variable valve timing, phased variable valve timing, cylinder deactivation that actually works well, higher and higher compression ratios (which are more efficient), better closed loop controls, catalyst manufacture to be less restrictive and more efficient, more complete combustion for reduced NOx, HC, and CO emissions. etc etc etc.
There are still some gains to be had, but there is a point of decreasing returns that needs to be taken into account in any business. Providing a port matched head with high precision gapping and finishing of piston rings/walls, and things like that don't gain as much efficiency as the other technologies that Have been developed and continue to be.
Once again you can throw all the technology in the world at a toyota 4 runner, honda pilot, nissan titan or whatever (that's right, it's not just the american car makers the liberal media loves to hate, and people blindly follow) bigger cars, by the laws of physics won't get the mileage of a smaller car with similar technology and a smaller engine. They just take more energy to move.
Modified by mar778c at 9:58 PM 6/17/2008</TD></TR></TABLE>
Are you kidding? Or insane? In the past 30 years we've seen the demise of carburettors, then the move from TBI to mulitport sequential injection, variable valve timing, phased variable valve timing, cylinder deactivation that actually works well, higher and higher compression ratios (which are more efficient), better closed loop controls, catalyst manufacture to be less restrictive and more efficient, more complete combustion for reduced NOx, HC, and CO emissions. etc etc etc.
There are still some gains to be had, but there is a point of decreasing returns that needs to be taken into account in any business. Providing a port matched head with high precision gapping and finishing of piston rings/walls, and things like that don't gain as much efficiency as the other technologies that Have been developed and continue to be.
Once again you can throw all the technology in the world at a toyota 4 runner, honda pilot, nissan titan or whatever (that's right, it's not just the american car makers the liberal media loves to hate, and people blindly follow) bigger cars, by the laws of physics won't get the mileage of a smaller car with similar technology and a smaller engine. They just take more energy to move.
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Re: HHO Fuel (iBrandon)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by iBrandon »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well there are two new cars now put out by Honda, the Honda Civic GX NGV, which runs off of compressed natural gas, and the FCX Clarity which runs off of Hydrogen fuel cells.
My guess if these cars become more popular, we may see more and more hydrogen and compressed natural gas vehicles on the road in the near future.
My uncle told me his buddy bought one of those compressed natural gas cars and filled up for little under $5 (which i find hard to believe) and got nearly 250 miles on it. But thats impressive for the cost ratio.
Im curious what the future of Automotive racing will be like, when gasoline is an arm and a leg.</TD></TR></TABLE>
CNG or LNG cars have been around for a while. There are kits to convert existing cars. My uncle had one when he lived in London. Because of the way the taxes on fuel worked over there, it was cheaper to use natural gas than gas.
Hydrogen fuel cell cars are great, except that there is no way to produce hydrogen that doesn't waste alot of energy, more than generating it onboard. With a hydrogen fuel cell car you have to make the hydrogen, and then store it. People are trying to figure something out, but it's tough because there are only so many ways to do it and the laws of thermodynamics are against you. The only real practical way to generate alot of hydrogen is electrolysis using nuclear energy. That would be cleaner, but it's still kind of a waste.
You guys have to remember, during and after the whole Enron thing, there was some deregulation of the markets. Prices of oil are being driven up by investors and speculators. This is the same thing that happened in the nikkei market, the same thing that happened in the dot com boom, the same thing that happened in real estate, and now it's happening in oil. Give it a couple years, and watch it crash HARD.
My guess if these cars become more popular, we may see more and more hydrogen and compressed natural gas vehicles on the road in the near future.
My uncle told me his buddy bought one of those compressed natural gas cars and filled up for little under $5 (which i find hard to believe) and got nearly 250 miles on it. But thats impressive for the cost ratio.
Im curious what the future of Automotive racing will be like, when gasoline is an arm and a leg.</TD></TR></TABLE>
CNG or LNG cars have been around for a while. There are kits to convert existing cars. My uncle had one when he lived in London. Because of the way the taxes on fuel worked over there, it was cheaper to use natural gas than gas.
Hydrogen fuel cell cars are great, except that there is no way to produce hydrogen that doesn't waste alot of energy, more than generating it onboard. With a hydrogen fuel cell car you have to make the hydrogen, and then store it. People are trying to figure something out, but it's tough because there are only so many ways to do it and the laws of thermodynamics are against you. The only real practical way to generate alot of hydrogen is electrolysis using nuclear energy. That would be cleaner, but it's still kind of a waste.
You guys have to remember, during and after the whole Enron thing, there was some deregulation of the markets. Prices of oil are being driven up by investors and speculators. This is the same thing that happened in the nikkei market, the same thing that happened in the dot com boom, the same thing that happened in real estate, and now it's happening in oil. Give it a couple years, and watch it crash HARD.
Re: HHO Fuel (Niles)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Niles »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Are you kidding? Or insane? In the past 30 years we've seen the demise of carburettors, then the move from TBI to mulitport sequential injection, variable valve timing, phased variable valve timing, cylinder deactivation that actually works well, higher and higher compression ratios (which are more efficient), better closed loop controls, catalyst manufacture to be less restrictive and more efficient, more complete combustion for reduced NOx, HC, and CO emissions. etc etc etc.
There are still some gains to be had, but there is a point of decreasing returns that needs to be taken into account in any business. Providing a port matched head with high precision gapping and finishing of piston rings/walls, and things like that don't gain as much efficiency as the other technologies that Have been developed and continue to be.
Once again you can throw all the technology in the world at a toyota 4 runner, honda pilot, nissan titan or whatever (that's right, it's not just the american car makers the liberal media loves to hate, and people blindly follow) bigger cars, by the laws of physics won't get the mileage of a smaller car with similar technology and a smaller engine. They just take more energy to move.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Rather than making a counter point you ask am I a joke or insane. That really helps when making a counter point but it seems to be typical for many on HT.
I'm fully aware of all of the technologies you spoke of and more you may not be. You seem to be focused on a simplification which basically ignores the economics ie profitability, unfortunately.
Are you kidding? Or insane? In the past 30 years we've seen the demise of carburettors, then the move from TBI to mulitport sequential injection, variable valve timing, phased variable valve timing, cylinder deactivation that actually works well, higher and higher compression ratios (which are more efficient), better closed loop controls, catalyst manufacture to be less restrictive and more efficient, more complete combustion for reduced NOx, HC, and CO emissions. etc etc etc.
There are still some gains to be had, but there is a point of decreasing returns that needs to be taken into account in any business. Providing a port matched head with high precision gapping and finishing of piston rings/walls, and things like that don't gain as much efficiency as the other technologies that Have been developed and continue to be.
Once again you can throw all the technology in the world at a toyota 4 runner, honda pilot, nissan titan or whatever (that's right, it's not just the american car makers the liberal media loves to hate, and people blindly follow) bigger cars, by the laws of physics won't get the mileage of a smaller car with similar technology and a smaller engine. They just take more energy to move.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Rather than making a counter point you ask am I a joke or insane. That really helps when making a counter point but it seems to be typical for many on HT.
I'm fully aware of all of the technologies you spoke of and more you may not be. You seem to be focused on a simplification which basically ignores the economics ie profitability, unfortunately.
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From: Austin, Republic of Texas
Re: HHO Fuel (mar778c)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mar778c »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> You seem to be focused on a simplification ....
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Which is also exactly what you did to his response.
So, tell us about all these secret developments that you know about but he doesn't. Or how making a three ton vehicle doesn't crush the gas mileage. Or how making a high-milage vehicle wouldn't be profitable for a global car company. Or how a lack of vision by 'American auto makers' somehow holds back an entire global market. I want to learn.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Which is also exactly what you did to his response.
So, tell us about all these secret developments that you know about but he doesn't. Or how making a three ton vehicle doesn't crush the gas mileage. Or how making a high-milage vehicle wouldn't be profitable for a global car company. Or how a lack of vision by 'American auto makers' somehow holds back an entire global market. I want to learn.
Re: HHO Fuel (Top Ramen)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Top Ramen »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
So, tell us about all these secret developments that you know about but he doesn't. Or how making a three ton vehicle doesn't crush the gas mileage. .</TD></TR></TABLE>
Rather than obsessing on the nonsense of 'secret developments'. The problem is the decision to make a 3 ton gas powered vehicle in the 1st place. The only reason to do so was because of high profitabililty. No where else in world to do get 2 and 3 ton gas powered. Even, the 'American auto makers' don't offer these outside of north america.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Top Ramen »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Or how a lack of vision by 'American auto makers' somehow holds back an entire global market. I want to learn.</TD></TR></TABLE>
That is the lack vision. As for holding back a global market, I don't know what you mean. What do you want to learn? Seriously. Seems as if you have all the answers.
Modified by mar778c at 10:51 AM 6/19/2008
So, tell us about all these secret developments that you know about but he doesn't. Or how making a three ton vehicle doesn't crush the gas mileage. .</TD></TR></TABLE>
Rather than obsessing on the nonsense of 'secret developments'. The problem is the decision to make a 3 ton gas powered vehicle in the 1st place. The only reason to do so was because of high profitabililty. No where else in world to do get 2 and 3 ton gas powered. Even, the 'American auto makers' don't offer these outside of north america.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Top Ramen »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Or how a lack of vision by 'American auto makers' somehow holds back an entire global market. I want to learn.</TD></TR></TABLE>
That is the lack vision. As for holding back a global market, I don't know what you mean. What do you want to learn? Seriously. Seems as if you have all the answers.
Modified by mar778c at 10:51 AM 6/19/2008
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Re: HHO Fuel (mar778c)
You are blaming 'American auto makers' for a lack of progress in the development of IC engines; I am merely expressing my astonishment at this viewpoint. No matter how myopic they may be, they are not in control of the global market. They do not keep Japanese or German companies from exploring any research avenues they choose to pursue. Blaming them for holding back development all over the world seems unfounded to me and I would love to hear how they managed to do it.
I also do not see how a for-profit company should be blamed for the taste of the buying public. Should they tell their stockholders they are now involuntary philanthropists and start making cars based on subjective standards of what is 'best' for them? Do you really think the public wants anyone from Detroit to tell them they have to buy a certain kind of car?
Blaming the companies is simplistic. Want to see who's fault it is - then just look around in traffic, or in the mirror. . . .
I also do not see how a for-profit company should be blamed for the taste of the buying public. Should they tell their stockholders they are now involuntary philanthropists and start making cars based on subjective standards of what is 'best' for them? Do you really think the public wants anyone from Detroit to tell them they have to buy a certain kind of car?
Blaming the companies is simplistic. Want to see who's fault it is - then just look around in traffic, or in the mirror. . . .
Re: HHO Fuel (Top Ramen)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Top Ramen »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You are blaming 'American auto makers' for a lack of progress in the development of IC engines; I am merely expressing my astonishment at this viewpoint.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I don't see how you got I blame american auto makers for lack of progress in the development of IC engines. I stated "the reason gas mileage has not significantly increased was because they chose to build less efficient more profitable vehicles. I guess they choose short-term profit over long term gain.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Top Ramen »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> No matter how myopic they may be, they are not in control of the global market. They do not keep Japanese or German companies from exploring any research avenues they choose to pursue. Blaming them for holding back development all over the world seems unfounded to me and I would love to hear how they managed to do it.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Never made any statement about global markets or control of anything. You have choose to read into my statement your own views.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Top Ramen »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I also do not see how a for-profit company should be blamed for the taste of the buying public. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I guess the same can be said for cigarette smoking. You can make excuses as much as you want but Detroits' butt is in a sling because of that very type of thinking.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Top Ramen »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Should they tell their stockholders they are now involuntary philanthropists and start making cars based on subjective standards of what is 'best' for them? Do you really think the public wants anyone from Detroit to tell them they have to buy a certain kind of car?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Philathropy, what does that have to do with anything? I guess clean emissions efficient vehicles are 'subjective standards'. And if you don't think thats best for everyone try living in Santiago, Bogata, Sao Paulo for a while. lol.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Top Ramen »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Blaming the companies is simplistic. Want to see who's fault it is - then just look around in traffic, or in the mirror. . . .</TD></TR></TABLE>
Oh ok, then why has every major american manufacturer fought to water down higher emissions and fuel economy standards? I guess they didn't have any better technology, huh. Or the price would be to expensive. Except, the japanese and euporean manufacuters seem to be able to cut it. Even when they produce the car here, domestically. The one thing you said that I agree with is myopia.
As for looking in the mirror, I own two civics and both get better than 32 mpg. How about you?
Modified by mar778c at 8:58 PM 6/19/2008
Modified by mar778c at 11:32 PM 6/19/2008
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I don't see how you got I blame american auto makers for lack of progress in the development of IC engines. I stated "the reason gas mileage has not significantly increased was because they chose to build less efficient more profitable vehicles. I guess they choose short-term profit over long term gain.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Top Ramen »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> No matter how myopic they may be, they are not in control of the global market. They do not keep Japanese or German companies from exploring any research avenues they choose to pursue. Blaming them for holding back development all over the world seems unfounded to me and I would love to hear how they managed to do it.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Never made any statement about global markets or control of anything. You have choose to read into my statement your own views.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Top Ramen »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I also do not see how a for-profit company should be blamed for the taste of the buying public. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I guess the same can be said for cigarette smoking. You can make excuses as much as you want but Detroits' butt is in a sling because of that very type of thinking.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Top Ramen »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Should they tell their stockholders they are now involuntary philanthropists and start making cars based on subjective standards of what is 'best' for them? Do you really think the public wants anyone from Detroit to tell them they have to buy a certain kind of car?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Philathropy, what does that have to do with anything? I guess clean emissions efficient vehicles are 'subjective standards'. And if you don't think thats best for everyone try living in Santiago, Bogata, Sao Paulo for a while. lol.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Top Ramen »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Blaming the companies is simplistic. Want to see who's fault it is - then just look around in traffic, or in the mirror. . . .</TD></TR></TABLE>
Oh ok, then why has every major american manufacturer fought to water down higher emissions and fuel economy standards? I guess they didn't have any better technology, huh. Or the price would be to expensive. Except, the japanese and euporean manufacuters seem to be able to cut it. Even when they produce the car here, domestically. The one thing you said that I agree with is myopia.
As for looking in the mirror, I own two civics and both get better than 32 mpg. How about you?
Modified by mar778c at 8:58 PM 6/19/2008
Modified by mar778c at 11:32 PM 6/19/2008
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From: Cleveland, OH, USA
Re: HHO Fuel (mar778c)
This is hilarious.
Nobody cares that you drive a CRX. It is so far below current emissions and crash regulations it wouldn't have a chance in hell of being built today. If I really wanted mileage and nothing else, I'd get an old diesel rabbit. I'd be doing 65-70mpg all [freak]ing day.
You also have no understanding of the global economy. Foreign automakers can produce cars and sell them here profitably because the dollar was strong against everything else. That means they can take the money they make here and do more with it. Due to less susceptibility to inflation/creep etc. Now that the dollar has fallen in value those automakers profits are going to go down, and their prices are going to go up. It's the reason we can't sell all our American stuff in china, but they can sell their crap here.
YOU brought up profitability, now you bring up tightening standards, saying nobody has asked. There has been RELENTLESS pressure from lobbyists, the media, etc for tightened emissions and increased standards. And there has simultaneously been pressure from the buyer for more spacious more powerful vehicles. Cars are cleaner today than they have ever been. We've all seen the example of newer cars having cleaner exhaust than the air they breathe in. But I guess this technology isn't advanced enough for you. Maybe you want cars to suck in all the mean people who point out the realities of the world to you, and crap out baby kittens.
The last time anyone tried to mandate a zero emissions vehicle, general motors (an American company) built the worlds most advanced electric car, at a cost of more than $1million each. They were the only major manufacturer to do it. This was the pinnacle of technology and no automaker, domestic or foreign has come close to making an electric vehicle since. You can use the tesla as an example, but that still doesn't work and they have transmission issues. Is this the kind of ruinously expensive technology you're talking about? If there was any profitable way to do it right now, anybody with half a brain would, they would be a billionaire.
Top Ramen basically backed you into a corner using your own words, and your whole argument is that the automakers don't want to use technology that is too expensive. Or they are hiding something. Guess what? They're right. You wouldn't pay $50k for a civic to get an extra 2mpg. Nobody would. All automakers have been doing a good job of profitably bringing new technologies to market at an acceptable pace. Once again, the laws of physics dictate that a larger car will take more energy to move, and will thus be less fuel efficient. The main way to increase the efficiency of cars isn't some magic technology, it's quite simply to continue tweaking the things that are being tweaked, and to make them smaller or lighter.
So, unless you have some vastly more efficient technology that the rest of us don't know about, where all the infrastructure is already there, I suggest going back to your internet trolling elsewhere.
Top Ramen: That NSX is gorgeous.
Nobody cares that you drive a CRX. It is so far below current emissions and crash regulations it wouldn't have a chance in hell of being built today. If I really wanted mileage and nothing else, I'd get an old diesel rabbit. I'd be doing 65-70mpg all [freak]ing day.
You also have no understanding of the global economy. Foreign automakers can produce cars and sell them here profitably because the dollar was strong against everything else. That means they can take the money they make here and do more with it. Due to less susceptibility to inflation/creep etc. Now that the dollar has fallen in value those automakers profits are going to go down, and their prices are going to go up. It's the reason we can't sell all our American stuff in china, but they can sell their crap here.
YOU brought up profitability, now you bring up tightening standards, saying nobody has asked. There has been RELENTLESS pressure from lobbyists, the media, etc for tightened emissions and increased standards. And there has simultaneously been pressure from the buyer for more spacious more powerful vehicles. Cars are cleaner today than they have ever been. We've all seen the example of newer cars having cleaner exhaust than the air they breathe in. But I guess this technology isn't advanced enough for you. Maybe you want cars to suck in all the mean people who point out the realities of the world to you, and crap out baby kittens.
The last time anyone tried to mandate a zero emissions vehicle, general motors (an American company) built the worlds most advanced electric car, at a cost of more than $1million each. They were the only major manufacturer to do it. This was the pinnacle of technology and no automaker, domestic or foreign has come close to making an electric vehicle since. You can use the tesla as an example, but that still doesn't work and they have transmission issues. Is this the kind of ruinously expensive technology you're talking about? If there was any profitable way to do it right now, anybody with half a brain would, they would be a billionaire.
Top Ramen basically backed you into a corner using your own words, and your whole argument is that the automakers don't want to use technology that is too expensive. Or they are hiding something. Guess what? They're right. You wouldn't pay $50k for a civic to get an extra 2mpg. Nobody would. All automakers have been doing a good job of profitably bringing new technologies to market at an acceptable pace. Once again, the laws of physics dictate that a larger car will take more energy to move, and will thus be less fuel efficient. The main way to increase the efficiency of cars isn't some magic technology, it's quite simply to continue tweaking the things that are being tweaked, and to make them smaller or lighter.
So, unless you have some vastly more efficient technology that the rest of us don't know about, where all the infrastructure is already there, I suggest going back to your internet trolling elsewhere.
Top Ramen: That NSX is gorgeous.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,057
Likes: 1
From: mother russia
Re: HHO Fuel (Niles)
Thanks Niles. You basically just said everything I wanted to tell him. lol.
The really shitty part (other than the discouraging "i want to punch myself in the face" feeling associated with knowing that we live in a world where most people dont understand high school physics) is that every so many years some douche will claim that they can turn water into fuel, the local news media will run a story on it, and some politician will throw money at it in the form of a grant or some such bs.
it is so goddamn frustrating seeing these people put on a little dog and pony show for the media and no one thinks to ask basic questions. the part that is even more frustrating is that person making the claims knows that they are full of ****.
Niles, have you ever heard of the James Randi Educational Foundation? (JREF)
James Randy is a former magician turned bullshit police and he devotes his life to debunking pseudo science and superstition. That might be right up your alley.
The really shitty part (other than the discouraging "i want to punch myself in the face" feeling associated with knowing that we live in a world where most people dont understand high school physics) is that every so many years some douche will claim that they can turn water into fuel, the local news media will run a story on it, and some politician will throw money at it in the form of a grant or some such bs.
it is so goddamn frustrating seeing these people put on a little dog and pony show for the media and no one thinks to ask basic questions. the part that is even more frustrating is that person making the claims knows that they are full of ****.
Niles, have you ever heard of the James Randi Educational Foundation? (JREF)
James Randy is a former magician turned bullshit police and he devotes his life to debunking pseudo science and superstition. That might be right up your alley.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,153
Likes: 0
Re: HHO Fuel (Mr.E.G.)
Niles is 99% right. The only thing I don't agree with is how hard the prices will crash. Well, I take that back somewhat. If gas gets up to $6 and falls to $3, that'd be a hard crash but I don't see myself spending less than $3 a gallon any time in the near future.
Mr.E.G.: You should be really mad at the gov't for using corn to make ethanol than. Thankfully people in other markets are using things like switch grass to make ethanol. I saw an interesting show on PBS about how in Pittsburgh this group was taking urban youth and going around and in all of the vacant spots around the area growing switch grass in the fields. From there, they'd farm it and bring it over to almost dying company which made lubricants. They converted some of their distillers to convert the switch grass into biofuel and are now looking to expand their operation because it has been so profitable. Makes me almost consider move to Pittsburgh. ALMOST.
Mr.E.G.: You should be really mad at the gov't for using corn to make ethanol than. Thankfully people in other markets are using things like switch grass to make ethanol. I saw an interesting show on PBS about how in Pittsburgh this group was taking urban youth and going around and in all of the vacant spots around the area growing switch grass in the fields. From there, they'd farm it and bring it over to almost dying company which made lubricants. They converted some of their distillers to convert the switch grass into biofuel and are now looking to expand their operation because it has been so profitable. Makes me almost consider move to Pittsburgh. ALMOST.
Re: HHO Fuel (Niles)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Niles »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Nobody cares that you drive a CRX</TD></TR></TABLE>
I drive a crx, lol. I guess reading comprehesion is not too high a skill set for a 'research engineer'.
Modified by mar778c at 10:05 PM 6/19/2008
I drive a crx, lol. I guess reading comprehesion is not too high a skill set for a 'research engineer'.
Modified by mar778c at 10:05 PM 6/19/2008
Junior Member
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 419
Likes: 0
From: Cleveland, OH, USA
Re: HHO Fuel (mar778c)
Pittsburgh is doing some really neat things with the space vacated by steel and other support industries that have moved or restructured. Being from Cleveland I'm obligated to say as a city they suck (booo Steelers, GO BROWNS!), but I'd be interested in reading more if you have a link about that switch grass farming? Even if they are just breaking even it's a hell of a start! I agree the ethanol from corn is sort of asinine. Especially in the wake of the tortilla riots in Mexico, and world food staple shortages. I think sometimes people remember America is a ridiculous powerhouse in soooooo many ways, including food production.
MR. E.G. I'll Google JREF Later. It sounds like mythbusters +1. I like it.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mar778c »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I drive a crx, lol. I guess reading comprehesion is not too high a skill set for a 'research engineer'.
Modified by mar778c at 10:05 PM 6/19/2008</TD></TR></TABLE>
And I guess spelling is too high a skill set for a drive through window attendant at Wendy's.
Wow, I'm not familiar with Honda's beyond my BB4 prelude (or whatever the chassis code is) and I thought the car in your avatar was a CRX, guess you sure showed me!
MR. E.G. I'll Google JREF Later. It sounds like mythbusters +1. I like it.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mar778c »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I drive a crx, lol. I guess reading comprehesion is not too high a skill set for a 'research engineer'.
Modified by mar778c at 10:05 PM 6/19/2008</TD></TR></TABLE>
And I guess spelling is too high a skill set for a drive through window attendant at Wendy's.
Wow, I'm not familiar with Honda's beyond my BB4 prelude (or whatever the chassis code is) and I thought the car in your avatar was a CRX, guess you sure showed me!
Re: HHO Fuel (Niles)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Niles »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">And I guess spelling is too high a skill set for a drive through window attendant at Wendy's.
Wow, I'm not familiar with Honda's beyond my BB4 prelude (or whatever the chassis code is) and I thought the car in your avatar was a CRX, guess you sure showed me!
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Wendy's, lol. We can compare tax returns and degrees any day you feel up to it.
While you play with yourself in a lab. I have real products to design and engineer.
Modified by mar778c at 10:38 PM 6/19/2008
Wow, I'm not familiar with Honda's beyond my BB4 prelude (or whatever the chassis code is) and I thought the car in your avatar was a CRX, guess you sure showed me!
</TD></TR></TABLE>Wendy's, lol. We can compare tax returns and degrees any day you feel up to it.
While you play with yourself in a lab. I have real products to design and engineer.
Modified by mar778c at 10:38 PM 6/19/2008
Junior Member
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 419
Likes: 0
From: Cleveland, OH, USA
Re: HHO Fuel (mar778c)
LOL,
Trust me, e-thug, nobody here sweats you.
Ninja edit: Alot of the smartest people I've ever met never went to college actually. And alot of the people I've met who are completely out of touch with reality and lacking common sense went to some really big name schools. I think anyone who's spent time on a shop floor would agree.
Trust me, e-thug, nobody here sweats you.
Ninja edit: Alot of the smartest people I've ever met never went to college actually. And alot of the people I've met who are completely out of touch with reality and lacking common sense went to some really big name schools. I think anyone who's spent time on a shop floor would agree.
Re: HHO Fuel (Niles)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Niles »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">LOL,
Trust me, e-thug, nobody here sweats you.</TD></TR></TABLE>
e-thug, lol. I wonder what you considered your behavior to be?
Modified by mar778c at 11:30 PM 6/19/2008
Trust me, e-thug, nobody here sweats you.</TD></TR></TABLE>
e-thug, lol. I wonder what you considered your behavior to be?
Modified by mar778c at 11:30 PM 6/19/2008
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,153
Likes: 0
Junior Member
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 419
Likes: 0
From: Cleveland, OH, USA
Re: (nowtype)
To the OP, sorry for taking this way off topic. I think there's a howstuffworks.com article on the hydrogen generator. That site is pretty cool, I send my younger brother there alot.
nowtype, That's awesome, it sounds like it's not subsidized either, which means it's actually economically sustainable. When my van finally dies I'm probably going to replace it with a 3/4 ton (to handle the towing for my business and as a side perk for towing racecars). I've been playing with the idea of getting a diesel so I could play around with using SVO or biofuel. A GRM article on Randy Pobst's Jetta said he used peanut oil (or soy oil, I can't remember). Not that I'm an eco-mentalist, I just think it would be a fun project. Stump pulling torque and french fry smells would be a welcome perk. :D
And marc we're still waiting for you to present some kind of information, instead of just statements saying "I know something you don't but I'm not telling!" Keep posting, you're making my day more entertaining.
nowtype, That's awesome, it sounds like it's not subsidized either, which means it's actually economically sustainable. When my van finally dies I'm probably going to replace it with a 3/4 ton (to handle the towing for my business and as a side perk for towing racecars). I've been playing with the idea of getting a diesel so I could play around with using SVO or biofuel. A GRM article on Randy Pobst's Jetta said he used peanut oil (or soy oil, I can't remember). Not that I'm an eco-mentalist, I just think it would be a fun project. Stump pulling torque and french fry smells would be a welcome perk. :D
And marc we're still waiting for you to present some kind of information, instead of just statements saying "I know something you don't but I'm not telling!" Keep posting, you're making my day more entertaining.