Hello all,

Hope you guys are willing to help out a Superhonda.com veteran here

This is my first venture into the bike forum, and am hoping some of you guys could give me some info, or turn me to the best resources.

My 4th year in Mechanical-Automotive Engineering is approaching, and we do a design project to culminate everything. I'm going to be on the FSAE team. We design and build a Formula car (you can check it out by searching up Formula SAE, there are hundreds of Universities across the world that compete), that uses the CBR600 motor.

Now, not many of the students on these teams are hardcore Honda motor fanatics like we are. I am hoping to put my knowledge of Honda motors to use to get the most of the 600cc motor. The only rule is that the displacement must remain at 600cc (and some intake/exhaust restrictor plates).

My questions are:
Upgrade parts availability
How the motor reacts to head building/bottom end building
How the motor reacts to upped compression/big cams (last year's car used California Spec Cams to help out our 20mm restrictor in the intake.)
What kind of tuning support there is for the engine (currently use some kind of MSD tuning paraphernalia with a non-stock ECU)
And maybe even how it would respond to boost

Main aspects of the competition are a Drag Race, Stopping Power, Auto-Cross, and Endurance Race. So I'm looking for tuning that can switch up the powerbands for the drag, auto-x, and endurance. And then build the motor as much as possible while keeping 600cc to make the best powerband.

Thanks a bunch, any info/comments are greatly appreciated...
We need to improve on engine performance from previous years (75hp, 42ft-lb)

Oh, and I wouldn't mind buying a CBR sometime for myself as well.

 

Here are some pictures of the current car:

 

I can't help you with the upgrades but that project looks bad-***!

 

Yep, as of now, she goes 0-60mph in 3.9s. A little heavy at 477 lbs, but it still pulls 1.3g on the skid pad. We specifically use the 2000-2001 Honda CBR600 F4i. We have our own engine dyno on campus, but we still haven't done much with the motor other than those higher duration cams. We've toyed around with the idea of boost, but I don't know if we'll be able to get a turbo to boost soon enough to help out the low end powerband.

 

You're allowed to upgrade the internals of the engine?
I believe it is JE that makes pistons (i think in the neighborhood of 12.7:1 compression ratio) for the F4i.
DynoJet Power Commanders are very popular for todays motorcycle engines, and is definitely made for the F4i. IIRC they have an air quick shift kit and an ignition module available for the F4i (which enables "fine tuning" each cylinder in 100 or so RPM increments).
Do the rules say anything about making an airbox? Because I think it would make at least a small difference even with a restrictor in the intake.

 

http://fsae.com/groupee?cdra=Y&s=763607348

http://www.formulasae.org/foru...h.cgi

and use the search function... before you post over there

 

Anything is fair game as long as the displacement remains at 600cc.
If you look at the 2nd picture, you see the cone air filter above the driver's head. It's a bit of ram air, but not much.

I'm thinking about doing more of an F1 style ram air. Currently, you can see a bit of an intake arm that is in the shape of a cone...with the 20mm restriction pretty close up to the cone filter.

 

Yep, we're all apart of that website which has great information. But very little of the competitors in FSAE are Honda fanatics, so I'm looking to brainstorm ideas from Honda guys who have experience with the CBR600.

The 2008 team just finished, and our 2009 team is hoping to get a jump start, as we never really have time for sufficient testing given the 8 month, 2 semester period. So, we're hoping to get started now to be ready for Michigan next April-May.

 

Please excuse the rough drawing, it was a 2 minute job on microsoft paint.

Just to give you an idea, maybe sit just a bit lower from where the filter is now. With the airbox "arms" slipping in between the seat and the roll bar.




Modified by knockout at 1:01 PM 6/9/2008

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CapnToll &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Anything is fair game as long as the displacement remains at 600cc</TD></TR></TABLE>

Are you going to gain much breathing through that tiny restrictor? Would you realize a larger gain in test times through weight reduction, chassis refinement and ECU tuning compared with a similar cost/effort in the engine?

I'm just throwing ideas out here because I've seen the restrictors used, and I know that increases in HP dont always translate to reduced times in an autox format.

 

haha thats pretty sick

good luck

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Are you going to gain much breathing through that tiny restrictor? Would you realize a larger gain in test times through weight reduction, chassis refinement and ECU tuning compared with a similar cost/effort in the engine?

I'm just throwing ideas out here because I've seen the restrictors used, and I know that increases in HP dont always translate to reduced times in an autox format.</TD></TR></TABLE>

qft... it is much more important for you guys to shed some of the fat off your 477lb car. that is actually a pretty pathetic weight - IIRC, most fsae cars nowadays are well under the 450 mark.

what software are you using for suspension modeling? design optimization of the chassis? any innovative materials, or just a straight tube-frame?

what kind of driver development and selection process do you have in place?

to be honest, the engine really plays second fiddle to the suspension and chassis design. it is certainly an important aspect of the car and you should be looking for somewhere north of 80hp... but that can be achieved on a stock engine with a well designed intake/exhaust (have someone learn Fluent) and properly tuned stand-alone ecu. in then end though, all power is going to give you is bragging rights and design judges asking why you didn't design the rest of the car more completely.

good luck in your final year, and be prepared to invest way more time, stress, sweat and work than you would in any of the other senior design projects.

 

This the University of Manitoba Car? I was thinking of trying to join the FSAE team but i heard that its a team of like 70 people with only like 4 or 5 actually getting to work on the car.
are you aloud to use a new model CBR engine because the new 600RR is about 110 hp stock. it has a very aggressive power band that would probably work very well for this application.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ragnaroek &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

qft... it is much more important for you guys to shed some of the fat off your 477lb car. that is actually a pretty pathetic weight - IIRC, most fsae cars nowadays are well under the 450 mark.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

No way, 480lb is probably about average...definitely not "pathetic" for a smaller budget team. A 4 cylinder FSAE car under 450lb is decently light. Not to mention you always 15lb to anything anyone tells you at competition both because most people are liars and the car is tech'd in a non-race-ready trim (using lots of tricks to get the listed weight down which you undo prior to the events).

I am certainly not an engine guy, but most teams choose the F4i motor over the 600RR motor. I'm sure that cost and availability have a lot to do with it, but each engine responds very differently after sucking through the 20mm restrictor. Low end torque is the name of the game IMO.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by unusual71 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
are you aloud to use a new model CBR engine because the new 600RR is about 110 hp stock. it has a very aggressive power band that would probably work very well for this application.</TD></TR></TABLE>

FSAE cars have to breathe through a tiny restrictor - So that engine woul be a poor choice.

 

Woah, lots of replies since I've been out.

unusual71: I don't attend University in Manitoba. I'm in Windsor, Ontario where they have Automotive Engineering. I took one course at U of M while I was in town on break.

ragnaroek:
We use SolidWorks and Catia. Not sure which we will use for the most part this time around. Not enough time for a composite frame, just a tube chassis. We're hoping to do some driver training in Michigan. I was hoping to go with engine mods that would bring down the powerband, but I'd rather tune it for that with less fiddling in the motor. We are thinking about trying to procure the 600RR, but it may not be in the budget. We hope to do very well in design, as U of Windsor suffered in Design at this year's competition at MIS.

As far as intake design, I was thinking of a more top mounted ram air like F1, or maybe just some kind of trumpet up top, and have a flat filter down the line somewhere.

I'd like to branch out from the MSD EFI controlling, and go with something more adept to Honda.

 

So THAT's what my next track car will look like

I'll probably use a VFR800 engine though

 

Any crash test results? Currently the highest top end 600 are gonna be out of the new RR or R6 I think. But you're really splitting hairs.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GSpeedR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

No way, 480lb is probably about average...definitely not "pathetic" for a smaller budget team. A 4 cylinder FSAE car under 450lb is decently light. Not to mention you always 15lb to anything anyone tells you at competition both because most people are liars and the car is tech'd in a non-race-ready trim (using lots of tricks to get the listed weight down which you undo prior to the events).</TD></TR></TABLE>

i haven't been involved in over 4 years, so maybe my memory is a little fuzzy... i just thought a lot of teams were down under 450 by now

OP - ditch the MSD crap. get something like a motec, performance electronics, or hell - even a megasquirt.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jasper_db1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So THAT's what my next track car will look like

I'll probably use a VFR800 engine though </TD></TR></TABLE>

a good friend of mine is stuffing an unrestricted 929 motor in an old sae car. i can't wait till he finishes putting it together... it will be nice to see what one of those things can do with some real power

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ragnaroek &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i just thought a lot of teams were down under 450 by now </TD></TR></TABLE>

The team im on weighed 445 wet this year @ MIS F-SAE, using a CBR600 engine, and were are on the heavy side, lots of the non 4cilinder teams have insane weights ~360 or such.

 

Maybe I'm mistaken then. In 2006 we (U of Michigan) had a 420lb car with an F4i motor and were the 2nd lightest 4cyl behind Penn State...which I believe was 370lb with a F4i motor (more Ti on that car than steel...seriously).

LeHigh had a single cyl with a live rear axle around 300lb a couple of years ago. Very impressive, but it's what I would call a "design-judge" racecar.

 

Why do most teams use 4 cyls? Are there no other decent options, maybe a parallel twin or a thumper?

 

All been done, the Aprilia 450 Twin is a VERY good option. Of course, jumping on to that involves redesigning the whole car.

RMIT, TUGRAZ, Delft dont use 4 Cilinders and they were at the top this year. Then Again we finished Auto-X in 10th place with a cbr engine on a 445lbs car only about, and the winner for that same event also sported a CBR engine.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Why do most teams use 4 cyls? Are there no other decent options, maybe a parallel twin or a thumper?</TD></TR></TABLE>

it was our experience that 4-cylinders are better able to eek power out of the restrictor. i would GUESS that it has to do with more frequent and smoother intake pulses, but i could be completely wrong

 

Variable Intake Manifold FTW