Car: 98 honda civic coupe
Front swaybar: stock
Spring rates: Front 12 Rear 5
Rear sway bar: itr 23mm sway bar
Tires: 205-50-15 azenis
Rims:15x7 front and 15x6.5 rear
ride height: Is 22mm front and 24mm rear off the ground up.

Alignment:
CAMBER
2.3 front left 2.2 Front right
TOE
.2 Front left .2 front right

CAMBER
2.1 Left rear 2.0 right rear
TOE
1.0 Left rear 1.0 right rear

Problem: The rear of the car keeps sliding out in turns, Its kicked out on me a few times.. i'm trying to correct this problem. Any help would be very appreciated
Thank you


Modified by B16B_coupe at 10:31 AM 3/22/2008


Modified by B16B_coupe at 10:31 AM 3/22/2008


Modified by B16B_coupe at 3:50 PM 3/23/2008

 

Are the alignment numbers in degrees?


If so, i think the 1.0degree of toe (isn't that toe out??) is a LOT.


Other then that, it is probably something that you are doing with the wheel or the pedals. That setup should push worse then a crack dealer in south central.

 

are the spring rates 12k f and 5k r?

i would have toe at zero all the way around

have you been playing with the air pressure of the tires much

cause in hot weather going much above 45psi in the rear was getting me real loose in a integra

 

Other then that, it is probably something that you are doing with the wheel or the pedals. That setup should push worse then a crack dealer in south central. [/QUOTE]


Thats some serrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrious pushin.

 

What are you doing with this car? HPDE, auto-X, DD?
What part of the turn does the rear end come out? turn-in, mid corner, exit?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BrianZ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What are you doing with this car? HPDE, auto-X, DD?
What part of the turn does the rear end come out? turn-in, mid corner, exit? </TD></TR></TABLE>

HPDE,DD

And its at the end of the turn when it comes out


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Are the alignment numbers in degrees?


If so, i think the 1.0degree of toe (isn't that toe out??) is a LOT.


Other then that, it is probably something that you are doing with the wheel or the pedals. That setup should push worse then a crack dealer in south central. </TD></TR></TABLE>

The toe is zero..

Just 1.0 is in the middle of the 2.. Which makes it 0 toe

 

I'm thinking that it's pretty hard to get a front drive car to get loose at corner exit. I'm not too experienced but i think it would help if you lowered your rear ride height a little. That might give the back some more traction. That's most likely your problem. For weight distribution on a front drive you should have the back slightly lower than the front. That's all i could really see in your set up that would be making you loose.

 

sounds like its driver induced

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B16B_coupe &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Just 1.0 is in the middle of the 2.. Which makes it 0 toe </TD></TR></TABLE>

what?

 

this is not my sheet, But for you all to understand the toe on the civic when its perfectly in the center, It will not be at zero unless you choose set all specs to 0 on the machine.
That the specs on a civic is like 2.0 and -.5 something like that..

 

ok.. so your running about .05 deg of toe (assuming your printout is the second one) on the front and .1 in the rear. You are talking about total toe, we are talking about toe at the wheels. For track only cars I would zero out ALL the toe, not just the total toe.
With the specs on the second sheet and what you have said about the cars setup I would have to think your doing something to cause the oversteer. Maybe to much or to little tire pressure in the rear ? or it could be driver induced ( pinching a corner, not smooth on the steering, ect). Now everything I'm talking about is for DE or track duty, on the street it could be caused by a rough road.

 

If you are on the power through the turn you wouldn't have this problem, sounds like you are either lifting or even worse braking mid turn because your confidence/skill ran out

 

What's with the 32mm rear bar and 280lbs springs? Sounds like something might be binding in the rear.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B16B_coupe &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Car: 98 honda civic coupe
Front swaybar: stock
Spring rates: Front 12 Rear 5
Rear sway bar: itr 32mm sway bar
Tires: 205-50-15 azenis
Rims:15x7 front and 15x6.5 rear
ride height: Is 22mm front and 24mm rear off the ground up.

Alignment:
CAMBER
2.3 front left 2.2 Front right
TOE
.2 Front left .2 front right

CAMBER
2.1 Left rear 2.0 right rear
TOE
1.0 Left rear 1.0 right rear

Problem: The rear of the car keeps sliding out in turns, Its kicked out on me a few times.. i'm trying to correct this problem. Any help would be very appreciated
Thank you


Modified by B16B_coupe at 10:31 AM 3/22/2008


Modified by B16B_coupe at 10:31 AM 3/22/2008</TD></TR></TABLE>

I thought the ITR swaybar was 23mm or is it some other ITR bar?

 

itr sway bars are 22mm..

i see a few problems with your setup:
1. too high of a difference of your spring rates
maybe try going with 12k front and 9k rear
2. even out the car height
making it higher in the rear causes it oversteer
3. the itr sway bar is pretty big in the back
i don't know how big your stock front swaybar is but i run a stock eg6 22mm in the front and itr 22mm in the rear and the car is pretty neutral unless i try to get it loose

maybe try changing the way you drive?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BrianZ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ok.. so your running about .05 deg of toe (assuming your printout is the second one) on the front and .1 in the rear. You are talking about total toe, we are talking about toe at the wheels. For track only cars I would zero out ALL the toe, not just the total toe.
With the specs on the second sheet and what you have said about the cars setup I would have to think your doing something to cause the oversteer. Maybe to much or to little tire pressure in the rear ? or it could be driver induced ( pinching a corner, not smooth on the steering, ect). Now everything I'm talking about is for DE or track duty, on the street it could be caused by a rough road. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I said that is not my print out!!! I'm running 0 toe front and rear

My tire pressure has been 32 rear and 30 front..

Would to fast in a turn cause this??

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by silver_flash99 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">itr sway bars are 22mm..

i see a few problems with your setup:
1. too high of a difference of your spring rates
maybe try going with 12k front and 9k rear
2. even out the car height
making it higher in the rear causes it oversteer
3. the itr sway bar is pretty big in the back
i don't know how big your stock front swaybar is but i run a stock eg6 22mm in the front and itr 22mm in the rear and the car is pretty neutral unless i try to get it loose

maybe try changing the way you drive?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah sorry i miss type the sway bar its a 23 rear and 22mm front...
maybe the rear is to high?

When this happening i was off throttle then on throttle it came back...

When i'm on throttle threw the turn it understeers...

 

lift induced

 

this is a driver induced problem not a car problem.....

do you have an instructor in the car with you?? if not you need to get one cause you don't know what you are doing on the track!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chad &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">this is a driver induced problem not a car problem.....

do you have an instructor in the car with you?? if not you need to get one cause you don't know what you are doing on the track!</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ok, Thanks

 

While i am certianly no alignment expert when it comes to machines, i have NEVER EVER seen a machine give 1 as 0.


That print out you should says, and looks like ever alignment sheet i have ever seen. The middle center most line is ZERO you go to the left or right of it and that number gets bigger (positive) or it gets smaller (negative).


One of two things are happening, A.) you really do have zero toe and just don't understand the read out or B.) you have a crap load of toe in the rear.

I'd suggest getting some instruction from a good FWD racer at the next HPDE event. Throw everything out the window you think you know and listen to them.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B16B_coupe &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Ok, Thanks </TD></TR></TABLE>

Don't worry kevin, I've Pulled the throttle lift oversteer many times.
I even did it on purpose at my driving school a few weeks backs just because someone wanted to see some spin out on the skidpad. (wet skidpad+direzza z1=awesomeness )

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chad &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">this is a driver induced problem not a car problem.....

do you have an instructor in the car with you?? if not you need to get one cause you don't know what you are doing on the track!</TD></TR></TABLE>

Try and find your local region SCCA website and see if they offer any kind of driving classes. It help me out a ton.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">While i am certianly no alignment expert when it comes to machines, i have NEVER EVER seen a machine give 1 as 0.


That print out you should says, and looks like ever alignment sheet i have ever seen. The middle center most line is ZERO you go to the left or right of it and that number gets bigger (positive) or it gets smaller (negative).


One of two things are happening, A.) you really do have zero toe and just don't understand the read out or B.) you have a crap load of toe in the rear.

I'd suggest getting some instruction from a good FWD racer at the next HPDE event. Throw everything out the window you think you know and listen to them.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

X2

 

This isnt doing it all the time, Its only when off throttle goin to fast into a turn...

I understand alignment

-0.5_1.5 1.5_-0.5

Thats the spec for 96-00 civic front toe mine is in the center of the 2. which is .5.....

My toe is fine. There is nothing holding the rear down in the turn.. Off throttle which makes the back lift...

 

this is my opinion is that you need a stiffer spring in the rear.. like said above i dont see the reason of having something that stiff in the front for the rear to be so soft. also what front bar are you running?! generally if your going into a corner with to much speed and lifting to quick thats whats going to happen.. a good way to correct this is A) have someone expirenced (especially with hondas) ride with you. B) try to get back into the gas pedal a bit and it should correct it and C) i would suggest doing some autox events to get your bearings on this.. you could also look into "lift throttle oversteer" that what i did cause i had the same problem. oh and if this happening on the street.. slow down