I had a 19mm Neuspeed sway on for 2.5yrs and loved the way the car handled on the street and in auto-x. It was very predictable in auto-x and I could set the Konis so that the car felt very neutral when auto-xing, ie: let off the gas a little on the turns, etc. without fishtailing.
Well a few days ago I installed a Comptech 22mm sway (without the tie bar, it's an older 2-2.5yr old Comptech sway) and I auto-xed with it for the first time yesterday Sunday. The car snapped very unpredictably. I took most of my runs sideways although I kept softening the shocks in the rear and also tried stiffer settings (Koni yellows w/H&R Sports). The car pushed and it oversteered like crazy at the same time, very unpredictable results. I couldn't set up the Konis where it would feel a little neutral like before with the 19mm.
The car also didn't seem to have the grip it had before and I could not get the car to 3-wheel and couldn't keep the line I wanted to.. Quick steering/responsiveness was less with the 22mm sway too. I don't understand it. I had a couple of people look under my car and we verified the sway bar was installed properly and everything was tight, endlinks, bushings, etc. BTW, this bar is brand new. It was just sitting in a box for 2yrs..
I guess I 'll eventually get used to it but I was running at least 3/4 sec. slower than usual. I just ordered the Tie bar that also reinforces the subframe so I hope this will make an improvement. I 'll keep trying to "test & tune" with the Konis on my next auto-x event until I get the car to behave better and produce better times like before. I had it down very well before where I 'd change the Koni settings according to the way the auto-x course was laid out and it has worked out very well the last 2-3 seasons. But for the life of my I could not control my car yesterday, especially in the slalom. Even when I stayed on the gas the whole time (I have V700s) the car would push. If I let off a little, the car went sideways and I spun out. I could not find a happy medium.
With the 19mm before, I was able to correct any oversteer or excessive understeer with a small turn on the Koni **** and knew exactly what to do and how to change the car's behavior. With the 22mm, nothing I tried worked to my advantage. Very hard to keep the car under control. I 'm disappointed you could say because I had higher expectations and was looking forward to some faster times in auto-x but didn't expect worse times!
Any suggestions, comments? on shock settings?

 

Yes, sell the 22mm bar and stick with what you were happy with...


Matt

 

I agree......if you have to drive harder to get the same speed imagine driving harder with the 19

 

With the 22mm bar you have made the rear stiffer, and looser, if you add that lower tie bar you are only going to make the situation worse. what are your alingment settings?

 

One little change to the suspension affects most everything. Your driving style, tire pressures, springrates, shock settings, etc may all need to be adjusted to fit.

A new swaybar will only make you faster if you learn to adapt to its strengths and weaknesses. Also, the new sway may be telling you that your Kumhos are dead or just really off on pressures. When mine died, the car would snap uncontrolably. New tires corrected this.

 

i agree. stick with what you like best, but i urge you to try it some more. i have a 26mm rear bar, staggered tire sizes. and run upwords of 8-10 psi more in the back and i still find it doesn't rotate enough. but, i have a lsd (a really good one at that) so that might be the difference.

 

Haven't checked the alignment in over a year but from what I remember, toe was out about 1/32nd in the rear, but 0 in the front. Camber was -1.6 in both front wheels and -1.3 & -1.5 in the rear. I have no camber plates. Alignment #s just ended up like that after the springs & shocks settled and I didn't allow the shop to adjust anything (I liked the negative camber) since the car felt fine at the time..

I think at least with the Comptech Tie bar I won't have to worry about the chassis flexing a lot back there and ripping. One less thing to worry about. Maybe a new wheel alignment might not be a bad idea. I think I 'll set the toe to 0 in the back. It's also time for some new coilovers or springs because these H&R springs I think are on their way out and have over 50 auto-x events on them. I believe it's a matter of finding the right shock settings and me changing my driving habits and not letting off the gas as much. I won't give up on this bar yet. It cost me too much money with labor! The thing I noticed was that even though I was all over the place and going sideways and losing precious time straightning the car out (when I wasn't carrying 3 cones under the car which I haven't done since I was a novice) I was only .5-.75" slower (comparing my times to other drivers that I compare my times too and have known for years) and finishing with ok times. So if I drove smoother and slower until I get used to this new bar I think I can improve my times.
The car seems to handle slightly better in the higher speeds and long sweepers. It's the quick transitions from left to right that makes the car very unpredictable and in essense slower.

 

Keep in mind, you don't want to fall into the convention that stiffer is always better. I know, I know, it sounds bad. The point is, you don't want the stiffest springs available, and the biggest sway bar, and the most tie bars, etc. You want a nice balance, and something you are comfortable with. If you "loved" the way the car handled with the 19mm bar, why did you switch? Better yet, if you don't love it now, why are you opposed to switching back?


Matt

 

I have been autocrossing with a 22mm rear sway bar for over a year and I just switched to 23mm and I can say my car is not unpredictable at all. If you car is both oversteering and understeering it sounds like you're over driving the car.

 

speedracer33: I refuse to believe that the 22mm bar will not improve my auto-x times over the 19mm so I 'm kind of in denial you could say, plus I just spend $300 in the bar + labor. I liked the car before w/the 19mm and did pretty well in my class in auto-x but a couple of times another Integra would show up with coilovers/Konis and a 22mm sway (vs. my sports springs & 19mm) I would lose to it, not by a lot but a loss is a loss. So I figured let me try the 22mm sway, maybe that will improve my times a little and make me more competitive. Upgrading to coilovers is my last option (this year anyway) because other non-SCCA clubs I race at like NASA & Mclub, will bump me up a class if I install coilover springs and since I 'm in the lead with the most points for a season trophy, I decided to only upgrade the sway bar. How was I supposed to know I wouldn't like it?

I believe like others said here, it's a matter of changing my driving habits and adjusting everything else to compensate for the bigger sway bar. Come to think of it, when I installed the 19mm bar, I didn't do as well in the beginning as expected either. It took me at least 4-5 events to find the right front & rear Koni adjustments (& tire pressures) that produced the best times and that I felt most comfortable with.
The V700s are still good because I 've only had about 8-9 auto-x events on them and I rotate them every other event. I got 21 events out of the previous set last year. It is possible I overdrove the car like someone said. This is why I posted this. To get some input and ideas and I think it has helped me so far. Like I said before, the car did pretty well in sweepers and gripped well on turns where there were no quick transitions but in the fast transitions and slalom where the car was very obedient before, the car now either pushed (I was going too fast?) a lot or it snapped uncontrollably if I eased off the gas. Normally before, I experienced 1 or the other, not both. That is what 's totally throwing me off. I think with some more test & tune and seat time I 'll be able to figure out what it takes to keep the car planted better and make faster transitions without losing control of the car.

 

Try this:

ZERO toe in the rear, and 1/8" out in the front...

Softer the rear tire pressure 2-3lbs less than the fronts and run the rear shocks at full stiff and the fronts softer...

It's sounds like it WON'T work, but for some reason it does...at least for me it did..

Jeff

 

I think you may have a good setup that allows you to make the car do what you want it to, over- or under-steer. Now you need to further develop the skills to allow to to *choose* what you want it to do at a given time. My Escort has a 25.4mm rear bar with short arms (i.e. REALLY stiff). I can swing the back end of it around and spin the car any time I want (and yeah, sometimes when I don't want!). But I had two very good drivers drive it recently and they both made it plow badly, even after riding with me on the prior run, they weren't dialed in to how the car allows one to select it's behavior, primarily through (trail)braking on corner entry.

Also, note that shocks will primarily control how the car reacts in transitions (such as turn-in), the bar will make itself known primarily in steady-state cornering. Keep your old settings and try to get used to the car's reactions, if you change the car while your brain is readjusting, you may end up chasing your tail (pun intended).

Seat time! Seat time! Seat time! Also, let a national-caliber driver try it out on a practice day or something and see what they can do with it after a few familiarization runs.

 

Will, I think you got it. I was constantly changing the shocks after every run, instead of leaving them at the old settings (for at least 2-3 runs) and try to get used to the car or study it more to see what kind of input it needed from me.

Also thanks Jeff for the suggestions. I did take air out of the rear tires as I thought that was helping in making the car tailhappy. It didn't help. I had them 2psi less at first and then went down to 4-5 psi less than the front, ng. This is what was frustrating. Before (with the 19mm) after a couple of runs, I would know exactly what to do to make the car faster through the course. I knew exactly how the car would react. I think it's just a matter of playing with everything all over again and find what works best. Good thing we get 9-10 runs at the Meadowlands (next wknd) so hopefully those plus a couple of fun runs at the end will help me solve some of the problems and get more comfortable with the car.