I am in HPDE right now, but due to the need for an engine rebuild, I am building the engine now for H2 HC. For H2, I can only run stock ITR cams, so there is no crazy lift or duration. My initial instinct was to use OEM Honda, but others have mentioned Skunk2, what are the thoughts on this? I don't want a super powerful set of springs if it isn't necessary, because after all, that's a power loss, even if it is minute. However, I do intend on revving to the max I can, or which the cam profile dictates, and I don't want to have to cringe every time I do it.

On a side note, what are the H2 ITR powered guys revving to?

 

after speaking with some hc people about busted retainers vs worn retainers, im gonna stay with stock itr springs and retainers in my head. im only gonna spin the b16 to like 8500 or so. so im not too worried. i do have a set of springs nd retainers lying around should i change my mind (toda prings, portflow retainers) but with Ti retainers u have to keep your valve adjustment nice and keep an eye on the thickness of the retainer.

 

I don't mind doing valve adjustments if necessary every two track weekends or so. I intend on revving to at least 8800 though, I'd like to see 9000 or more even.

 

I dont know how much you weight but it might be tuff to get your crx up to H2 weight with a R engine remember youre only allowed 200lbs of ballast.

 

Yeah I know, I'm just going to have a slightly bigger battery in the car, with a very stout roll cage, that should bring me up no problem. It is ~2280 right now with full fluids and the new brakes anyway with only a rollbar and no ballast, so I am well within being able to make weight. Back to the valve spring question answering please...

 

I was actually contemplating this very thing recently. I'm going to be slowly building an H2 B20 motor for my car and I have a set of heavier springs and Ti retainers that my dad had bought for my LS head without realizing that they were illegal for H4. So, I basically have a free set of those laying around and they would slip right into a B20 head, but I wasn't sure if that would be more risky in terms of maintenance or being prone to failure. I also wasn't sure if the springs would even be worth the extra mechanical loss since I won't be revving the B20 passed 7500 or so.

So unfortunately, I have questions, not answers.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ekim952522000 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I dont know how much you weight but it might be tuff to get your crx up to H2 weight with a R engine remember youre only allowed 200lbs of ballast.</TD></TR></TABLE> he should give me his c5 and take my b16 then

as for valvetrain with stock or stockish cams, its realy a toss up. some say its safer to have aftermarket stuff just incase u zing it alittle. some say its not worth replacing retainers as a wear item. i'd consult your engine builder/tuner and see what they say.

 

I'd go with new ITR's. Stick it in a higher gear before entering turns where you would otherwise need to rev it out of the powerband.

This should help you see where the power loss comes from with S2's. They're not on the list, but look at the RM or Supertechs as an example.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GI8U2racing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I intend on revving to at least 8800 though, I'd like to see 9000 or more even.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't know that there's much point to that. You most likely won't be making power that high with stock cams. I don't know if that helps answer your question or not. Also, are Ti retainers REQUIRED for springs?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Stinkycheezmonky &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Also, are Ti retainers REQUIRED for springs? </TD></TR></TABLE>
stock retainers dont seat well on aftermarket springs and visa versa.

 

Interesting, good to know. Different shape then, I guess?

 

I wouldn't bother with Ti retainers. My roommate almost dropped a valve in his B16A head because his Skunk2 Ti retainers wore out.

If you're going to run ITR cams, I think you should just get the ITR springs and retainers. I also don't think it's beneficial to rev that high.

While you've got the head apart, you should consider getting the ITR lost motion assemblies, too, at least on the intake side. I don't know what head you have, but ITR and CTR cams can bind up the Si and GS-R LMAs because they don't have enough travel for the larger VTEC lobe, especially on the intake side. I say this, however, having run CTR cams in my GS-R for 5 or 6 years with the GS-R LMAs. Although, I don't rev it that high. So, take that information however you'd like.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Stinkycheezmonky &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I don't know that there's much point to that. You most likely won't be making power that high with stock cams. I don't know if that helps answer your question or not. Also, are Ti retainers REQUIRED for springs? </TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree that there is PROBABLY no use revving past maybe 8500, but if I'm in a sweeper and want to stay in the lower gear, I'd like to be able to do it, that was my initial reason for stating that.

Aquafina,

Are you sure the S2 valvetrains are close to the other aftermarket ones? Otherwise I can see why the ITR ones are good. Are all OEM ITR valve springs the yellow ones, or is that a specific generation or style of them?

Finally, is it impossible to rev OEM ITR springs to say, 8700 or 8800? I swear I've heard of people going to 9000 on OEM springs, but maybe they were numb-nuts

I'd like to run OEM if possible, just to avoid the maintanence, but if it's worth it, I'll run the S2's


Modified by GI8U2racing at 7:44 AM 3/12/2008

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GI8U2racing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I agree that there is PROBABLY no use revving past maybe 8500, but if I'm in a sweeper and want to stay in the lower gear, I'd like to be able to do it, that was my initial reason for stating that.

</TD></TR></TABLE>
i think your question has basically been answered as far as making power on ITR cams past their intended stock rev limiter.
as far as having more over-rev,500 more RPM is not going to make that big of a difference.if you need that to keep from shifting through a sweeper,you'll still have to up shift on track out anyway.you're better off to just enter in the higher gear.
on the other hand,with my B20,i could use about 2000 more RPM over where i shift
Chris

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TeamNextGenChris &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
i think your question has basically been answered as far as making power on ITR cams past their intended stock rev limiter</TD></TR></TABLE>

Where did anyone here state this? That would be great to know

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TeamNextGenChris &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
as far as having more over-rev,500 more RPM is not going to make that big of a difference.if you need that to keep from shifting through a sweeper,you'll still have to up shift on track out anyway.you're better off to just enter in the higher gear.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Everyone has been on track and been on some straight and had to shift into a higher gear right before the braking zone when they'd rather not, those are the situations I want to avoid if possible. True, 500 RPM isn't much, but it might be another 2-3 seconds in 4th gear that allow me to stay in 4th gear. That's all

 

just put a 4.9 in that trans. then you'll be ok to shift up and not be way outta the powerband. and its not like ur running the torqueless wonder b16

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Lo-Buck EF &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> but with Ti retainers u have to keep your valve adjustment nice and keep an eye on the thickness of the retainer.</TD></TR></TABLE>

This is the thing to keep in mind here. When you enter a racing situation or stray from using non-OE parts you will need to keep a much closer eye on your engine in every way. Valve adjustments are a must every event. My K series requires valve attention more often than some of the other B series engines that I have maintained.

What Aquafina said is true as well, depending on how you drive you may need certain parts that you would not need otherwise if you spend more time in a specific rpm band, loading etc.

The skunk springs are a safety measure, The power loss/increased seat wear/retainer wear will be there due to the heavier spring although if you want to keep a very close eye on your valvetrain ITR's would be a good option as well.

-sander

 

so, for safty sake, you would recommend heavier springs/aftermarket retainers? i've actully been torn on this. first there was a run of busted stock retainers. so i got a vlavetrain. then there was a run of busted Ti retainers. so i held off on putting the valve train in. it does seem like a good safty measure since the engine will see lots of mostly high rpm use. but im not sure yet. i wanna know why stock retainers were breaking.
-spenc...


Modified by Lo-Buck EF at 1:57 PM 3/12/2008

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GI8U2racing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Where did anyone here state this? That would be great to know

</TD></TR></TABLE>


you:
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GI8U2racing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I agree that there is PROBABLY no use revving past maybe 8500, but if I'm in a sweeper and want to stay in the lower gear, I'd like to be able to do it, that was my initial reason for stating that.

i]</TD></TR></TABLE>


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ThoseDarnKids &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you're going to run ITR cams, I think you should just get the ITR springs and retainers. I also don't think it's beneficial to rev that high.

.</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Stinkycheezmonky &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I don't know that there's much point to that. You most likely won't be making power that high with stock cams. I don't know if that helps answer your question or not. Also, are Ti retainers REQUIRED for springs? </TD></TR></TABLE>


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Aquafina &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'd go with new ITR's. Stick it in a higher gear before entering turns where you would otherwise need to rev it out of the powerband.

]</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Lo-Buck EF &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">after speaking with some hc people about busted retainers vs worn retainers, im gonna stay with stock itr springs and retainers in my head. im only gonna spin the b16 to like 8500 or so. so im not too worried. i do have a set of springs nd retainers lying around should i change my mind (toda prings, portflow retainers) but with Ti retainers u have to keep your valve adjustment nice and keep an eye on the thickness of the retainer.</TD></TR></TABLE>

this all points to not revving past the stock limit....

stock JDM ITR dyno plot.power falls off starting at 8k.any stock ITR dyno plot will support this.revving to 8500 already gives you plenty of over-rev.any higher on stock cams and you're probably just hurting yourself.


i understand where you're coming from on your argument about staying in a lower gear through a turn,but i've learned from experimentation(as well as talking with people much more informed than we are)that sometimes selecting a higher gear and "lugging" the car through a section can be faster...you possibly eleiminate an upshift on track out(which takes times to shift,as well as taking your concentration off the proper track out line),and it may put you in a better place in the powerband anyway.i picked up a lot of time in two places at VIR by doing this.
if your throttle pick-up point has you into the over-rev area already,you've got less power than being in the next higher gear,at an RPM right where the engine starts making power.even worse if it makes you have to upshift right as you get back to/close to full throttle.
Chris




Modified by TeamNextGenChris at 2:12 PM 3/12/2008

 

Besides the fact that the bolt-on's and minor porting raise my peak hp RPM a little, the ITR cams obviously can't do much past 8500 it seems. The more I read this thread, the more I am thinking of doing OEM ITR, any suggestions against?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Lo-Buck EF &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so, for safty sake, you would recommend heavier springs/aftermarket retainers? i've actully been torn on this. first there was a run of busted stock retainers. so i got a vlavetrain. then there was a run of busted Ti retainers. so i held off on putting the valve train in. it does seem like a good safty measure since the engine will see lots of mostly high rpm use. but im not sure yet. i wanna know why stock retainers were breaking.
-spenc...


Modified by Lo-Buck EF at 1:57 PM 3/12/2008</TD></TR></TABLE>

Me, yes. I like heavier springs just to eliminate any possiblity of float how ever minute. From a sprint, one motor per race perspective I would see if i could run single springs and reduce drag that way (see nascar "beehive" springs) They use these type of springs and reduce drag and increase float protection that way.

I had only mentioned the Skunk2 springs and retainers as a precautionary stand point.

 

Not all of the ti retainers available have wear problems. Dig around the all motor forum and you can find out which do and which don't. Not sure about S2 as I don't have experience with them, but RM valve train holds up fine with road racing. If you maintain your engine well, I'd just get some new ITR springs. ITR cams don't make power over the stock limiter. A well built ITR I rode in at the last ITR Expo (S2 Pro1 cams, 198whp) was peaking slightly under 8,900 iirc. Use whatever will give you the most reliability and match your gearing to the powerband and track.

 

I mean, I'm sure Sander and I can maintain the engine good, that isn't a problem once we are aware of the situation. I am merely trying to maximize the output of my engine without risking reliability or other performance factors. Seems like as long as I behave on the revving and keep an eye on the valvetrain, all should be OK with the OEM ITR though. Although the reliability of the S2 system is also attractive...