How low can you lower your EF with out needing to use a camber kit?

 

id say 1.5-2 im 3.5 and barely need one, i still dont have one matter of fact

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by elf469 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How low can you lower your EF with out needing to use a camber kit? </TD></TR></TABLE>

you dont need a camber kit.

you do need an alignment to fix the incorrect toe due to lowering that is the TRUE cause of uneven tire wear.

 

Thanks I was thinking about just dropping it about 2". Just wanted to make sure I didn't need anything else other than my Koni's and GC's.

 

the other thing you need is an alignment. just remember that.

 

front top hats are a good idea

 

get yourself a laser level and a speed square to do your own alignment
that's what i did.
i'll do a write up on it with pics if enough ppl are interested

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ED9man &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">front top hats are a good idea</TD></TR></TABLE>Explain...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LowFlyin’ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Explain...</TD></TR></TABLE>

they allow the shock to travel a bit more before bottoming out.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tyson &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

you dont need a camber kit.

you do need an alignment to fix the incorrect toe due to lowering that is the TRUE cause of uneven tire wear.</TD></TR></TABLE>

MYTH .....................

read honda-tuning magazine and work at les-swab and honda for a while. I have and its a myth. Oh ya and I'm a mechanical engineer now. So I think I'm qualified to make these remarks.

COMMON SENSE YIELDS:

1.) too much of this question relies on correct tire pressure! More pressure creates more force on the affected area than the factory specs were tested at and designed for.
2.) Do the static load analysis, that alone will prove increased angle and force cause excess wear. Do you know what a static load analysis is?
3.) Increased camber angle degrades tire wall stability in a very short amount of time.
4.) want me to keep going? I can provide <U>FACTS</U> can you?

This is the second time I've seen you post this. Those 13000 post must have been bumps.

 

go away.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tyson &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">go away.
</TD></TR></TABLE>


haha.............................

There are the facts folks you see them !

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by elf469 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How low can you lower your EF with out needing to use a camber kit? </TD></TR></TABLE>


I would never lower you car without a camber kit ready to install. Believe me its not worth lowering your car if you dont do it right!

 

Both of you are correct...to a point.

A wheel with 0 camber, will allow the tire to roll under the rim and off the treaded surface of the tire. A wheel with 5 degrees of camber will not allow the full use of the tread width. A happy medium is required. Usually between 1 and 2 degrees negative. This is for street tires. Most race tires have been designed to run at least 3 degrees negative (check Hoosier's website for reference).

I may not have rock solid facts to prove this point, but I do have 6 years of real world experience, driving on the street and AutoX/Road Course. When my car was stock, between the street and track I would wear out the outside of my tires first. I was using appropriate tire pressures. Once I moved on to suspension upgrades and gained -2.5 degrees in the front, my tires finally wore evenly though out the life of the tire: roughly 1 year. This was on a 01 Prelude, so it's a little heavier car...but I never had an issue with excess inside wear.

 

Do you know what a static load analysis is?

I do, I do. Hooray for another ME who knows WTF he's talking about.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by whiteknightef &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">duh</TD></TR></TABLE>

I couldn't even quote your whole statement. If you're seriously trying to argue with Tyson, GTFO. Those 13000 posts were actually trying to help people instead of being an ****-retentive one-upper. And did you really just say that reading Honda Tuning magazine as a source from where you gained so much knowledge?? LOL. Once again, GTFO.

I've rode on -1.5* camber for quite a long time and saw MINIMAL adverse effects on my tires treadlife.

And for being an engineer, i figured you would know its DUE not DO.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ComeOnKip &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">And for being an engineer, i figured you would know its DUE not DO. </TD></TR></TABLE> I got that joke, and a little part of me died on the inside.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ***$nyper &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I got that joke, and a little part of me died on the inside.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Thats what I was aiming for.

 

les swab? or les schwab?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tirerack.com &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Additionally the vehicle's toe is one of the most critical alignment settings relative to tire wear. A toe setting that is just a little off its appropriate setting can make a huge difference in their wear. Consider that if the toe setting is just 1/16-inch off of its appropriate setting, each tire on that axle will scrub almost seven feet sideways every mile! Extend it out and you'll discover that rather than running parallel to each other, the front tires will scrub over 1/4-mile sideways during every 100 miles of driving! Incorrect toe will rob you of tire life.</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

As low as it could possibly go. No joke.

Tyson is a long standing member with an incredible track record of trying to help people. If you want to disagree with him, please do so in a polite manner. He knows his stuff, and really tries to help. Posts like this, will eventually set in the apathy, and end up driving yet another fantastic resource from this site (and we've already lost so many).

(And please don't think I'm just swinging from his sack or anything. Him and I have disagreed, but at least we try to contribute without insults.)

But, lets talk about camber instead of Tyson for a bit.

I daily drive a 00 GSR with -4.0* of front camber, -1.3* rear camber.
I have a front camber kit (SPC), and I use it to get more camber than lowering provided, as well as additional caster.
Front toe is 0, rear slight toe in (whatever factory spec is).
I've had this alignment for over 2 years. I get the toe aligned periodically, haven't touched camber.
I measured my remaining tread recently. 1 tire is relatively new, as I had unrepairable damage from a screw, so we'll ignore that tire. And yes, I do have a tread depth gauge.
Other 3 tires, 4/32" center 4/32" inside shoulder, 3/32" outside shoulder.

If camber wears the inside shoulder of tires, then why are mine not wearing as you seem to think they will? Why am I on track to get nearly 3 years of daily driver use out of my tires with such extreme camber? (And lets not beat around the bush, -4* is absurd.)

Instead, I'll propose a different reason why most people think a camber kit is necessary. Toe. Lowering a wishbone suspension Honda changes the toe (I have no knowledge on strut cars if it does, but it probably does since it will still change the tie rod angle). Toe scrubs tires. Scrub wears tires. Fix the toe, fix the wear issue.

Another thing most people seem to forget is pressure. Ever driven tires that have too much pressure in them for an extended amount of time? They wear out the center section and leave the shoulders intact. Under inflated, and you wear the shoulders.

Over inflated, cambered, and incorrect toe, and you'll have very unhappy tires. Considering that a large number of people seem to think that the max pressure on the side of a tire is what they should run, combined with the fact that these same people do not get their toe fixed after lowering, and its no wonder they burn through tires and have irregular wear patterns.

Now, if you ask about my autocross tires, heh. They're worn to 2/32" on the inside shoulder, 5/32" center, 4/32" outside shoulder. Why did these wear so differently than the street tires? Because I drive like a maniac on them (only used for autocross and HPDE) and my OEM open diff allows a ton of inside tire spin on corner exit. Camber or toe and burnouts do not a happy tire make.

I've got another example of camber and tire wear. 13 years ago I bought my first car, a 1979 Triumph Spitfire, and I still have it. In the first 3 months, I killed a set of tires. Everyone told me it was the rear camber. Took the car into high school auto shop, threw it up on the alignment rack, and watched the teacher s#@t a brick at the rear toe setting (something like 3/8 out). Some custom shims, and a corrected rear toe, and I drove the car home with -4.75* or rear camber, and 0 rear toe, and a car aligned within the manufacturer's alignment specifications. -3.75* +- 1* is spec for that car. Got new tires the following week, and they are still on the car today (40k miles or so, I don't drive a lot and have other vehicles), and while they are nearly bald (and certainly old and hard), they are worn perfectly even across the entire tread surface, and I do NOT rotate tires on that car, ever.

If I can daily drive a car with -4.75* or rear camber, and a suspension design with a camber curve so extreme that 2" of suspension compression results in another -3* of camber, for years without any signs of irregular tire wear (it was the daily driver until 03 when the Integra was purchased), then how exactly is camber a tire killer?

Please, feel free to post your experience, and feel free to disagree with me. However, please do NOT call those of us liars who have accepted that camber does not kill tires. Instead, show us an example of a car that had correct toe, still wore its tires irregularly, and wasn't subjected to burnouts.

My mega-cambered car. Not the best picture, but the camber is noticeable.


Ok, thats it. I'm done. I've tried to help people save their tires, and not waste money on unnecessary parts (that actually do more harm than good on a Civic or Integra). But people keep trying to act like Tyson and myself are smoking crack, and that we somehow have magic tires. If you want to waste money, and further reduce the already inadequate available front suspension travel, by all means throw that front camber kit on your street car. If you'd like to save some cash and not dent your shock towers, just get the toe set and enjoy your lowered car. Bash me all you want, I'm done trying to help people on this topic, and won't even bother to defend myself in this thread.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by whiteknightef &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

........Oh ya and I'm a mechanical engineer now......</TD></TR></TABLE>

In my studies en route to becoming a Mechanical Engineer I've learned that real world experience is just as valuable as "desk jockey" analysis and 'theoretical' book work.

 

haha wow it comes to criticizing grammar over facts. haha

I dont care about long standings on this site. I just know what Im talking about. This guy "TYSON" keeps telling everyone they dont need a camber kit.

WRONG

That all there is too it. If you care so much about him then fine, pay more for tires. I personally think this is really funny and most of the time thats why I say the things I do. When I see people get into a crazy typing frenze it is helarious. Especially when people start to use spelling and grammar as a discreditation method.

Funny as hell.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LowFlyin’ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Both of you are correct...to a point.

A wheel with 0 camber, will allow the tire to roll under the rim and off the treaded surface of the tire. A wheel with 5 degrees of camber will not allow the full use of the tread width. A happy medium is required. Usually between 1 and 2 degrees negative. This is for street tires. Most race tires have been designed to run at least 3 degrees negative (check Hoosier's website for reference).

I may not have rock solid facts to prove this point, but I do have 6 years of real world experience, driving on the street and AutoX/Road Course. When my car was stock, between the street and track I would wear out the outside of my tires first. I was using appropriate tire pressures. Once I moved on to suspension upgrades and gained -2.5 degrees in the front, my tires finally wore evenly though out the life of the tire: roughly 1 year. This was on a 01 Prelude, so it's a little heavier car...but I never had an issue with excess inside wear.</TD></TR></TABLE>

^AGREE^, but 5 degrees is a lot. I agree more with 0.50 to 1.25 degrees.

Thats why better traction during cornering and racing comes from a slight slide with slight camber angle.


Modified by whiteknightef at 7:37 AM 3/5/2008

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Si-Samuri &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Do you know what a static load analysis is?

I do, I do. Hooray for another ME who knows WTF he's talking about.</TD></TR></TABLE>

HAHA ya finally a non-ignorant educated person.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by spcrxracer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

In my studies en route to becoming a Mechanical Engineer I've learned that real world experience is just as valuable as "desk jockey" analysis and 'theoretical' book work.</TD></TR></TABLE>

True but where there is dynamics there is mathmatical correlation.