I thought some of you guys might want to read this. Enjoy

http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets6.html

 

I love this line:

"Not on this list? Almost certainly crap."

Good FYI. Maybe post this in the Road Racing/Autocross section?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Doostur &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I love this line:

"Not on this list? Almost certainly crap."

Good FYI. Maybe post this in the Road Racing/Autocross section?</TD></TR></TABLE>


I'm quite surprised at that, if that's true and he classes Showa as crap too, I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that Showa isn't of good quality.

 

I like reading Dennis Grant articles but i do agree with Tarts assessment as well.

 

I know the title of this said auto-x setup, so it immediately piqued my interest. But what was with all the NASCAR references? I am not out on the track making 1500-2000 left turns and there is not mention of going into Chicago boxes and slaloms at mid to high speed. I am still wondering what is the relevance of this article compared to the events that sport compact cars participate i.e. Auto-X and road racing?

I do see the importance of the shock dyno as it pertains to your setup, but I have a tendency to disregard good information when it is immediately followed by statement like "SHOWA and JIC make substandard setups." Some of the developers they mention (negatively) have won many time trials on Suzuka and Ebisu with their off the shelf suspension setups.

So my question again is... How is this relevant?

 

Dennis Grant, huh? *cough* blow-hard *cough*

This is my take on all of his opinions (and from meeting the guy): If you disagree with Dennis Grant, then you are wrong.

No doubt he has gained some knowledge over his career, but I don't think it is FAQ worthy and if it even applies to us. This is the same guy who had a license plate of "R Eater" on his DSM.

Also the same guy who could have bought a nice little brick ranch with a pony field with the money he dumped into his DSM for Autox.

 

I wondered what he drove, and why he was such a Japanese hater.

seems weird that Showa suspension made the R the best handling FF ever, but they're crap....

 

His flaw is that he can't/hasn't tested every setup out there; therefore, he shouldn't generalize so specifically--if you know what I mean.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Todd00 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">His flaw is that he can't/hasn't tested every setup out there; therefore, he shouldn't generalize so specifically--if you know what I mean.</TD></TR></TABLE>

exactly. i mean he is only supporting handful of brands in a market where there are a thousand competitors. pretty much claiming that hes done enough research to say everything but these 6 are crap.

 

I think the root of his problem comes from him driving a DSM. :smile:

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tartje &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">seems weird that Showa suspension made the R the best handling FF ever, but they're crap....</TD></TR></TABLE>

tru dat

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by soulassassin13 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think the root of his problem comes from him driving a DSM. :smile:</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thats a safe bet.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by get RIGHT &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Thats a safe bet. </TD></TR></TABLE>

DSM's suspension is Jackstands for the majority of their lives

 

^^ hehehe.

 

So, can any of your fanboi's tell us WHY Showa is good? I'm guessing I won't get anything more then 'they won a lot of races'.

You can make substandard equipment work. It's been done before and will be done again. It doesn't mean that it isn't still substandard though.

If you know how to read shock dyno's and can get your hands on dyno's of the JDM dampers, you'll find that 99% of them have one of three ailments. The most common ailment is a junk damper curve. Typically not enough low speed control and excessive amounts of bump force. Another issue would be limited adjustment range, or adjustments that go counter to what you think they should. Like adjusting the shock stiffer and at some point in the curve it actually gets softer. I've seen fewer shock dyno's then Dennis has, and I reached the same conclusions he did long before he wrote his web site. I don't agree with him on what he's seen with the Koni's, but only because all of my Koni shock dyno's do not have the problems he claims to have seen.

Dennis is a Type-A personality through and through. Don't let his presentation of the information and your own bias take anything away from what he's saying though. Just as he says on his site, the information isn't there for you to blindly follow, just like you shouldn't blindly assume Showa, JIC, Tien, BuddyClub, whatever is good because some guy won some races on them. Research it yourself and find out if he's right or not. I have, and as much as I don't like Dennis, I will say that a good bit of what he presented fits what I've learned on my own. Some of it doesn't, but I'm not going to dump everything he says as false because I don't agree with some of it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So, can any of your fanboi's tell us WHY Showa is good?</TD></TR></TABLE>


I automatically lose ALL respect I might have for ANYONE the second they refer to anyone as a fanboi.

you cannot get anymore condescending than that.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tartje &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


I automatically lose ALL respect I might have for ANYONE the second they refer to anyone as a fanboi.

you cannot get anymore condescending than that.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Its only condescending if it fits. You have two options. You can stay offended and take nothing away from the conversation, or you go do some research and prove you're not a fanboi by countering opinions presented by me in this thread and Dennis on his website with something more then "seems weird that Showa suspension made the R the best handling FF ever, but they're crap....". Sorry, that just reads like a fanboi post.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Its only condescending if it fits. You have two options. You can stay offended and take nothing away from the conversation, or you go do some research and prove you're not a fanboi by countering opinions presented by me in this thread and Dennis on his website with something more then "seems weird that Showa suspension made the R the best handling FF ever, but they're crap....". Sorry, that just reads like a fanboi post. </TD></TR></TABLE>

when you can give me a reason beyond being a suspension dyno fanboi...


IDGAF how something performs on a suspension dyno, it's how it feels when it's on the car that counts. you can tell me that Showa is the worst damper you've ever seen with your bullshit dyno readings, my car is one of the most balanced cars I've ever driven, with fantastic composure and feedback to the driver.

it is world renowned for having fantastic handling.

but don't worry, you've put the dampers on a dyno, and they're officially crap. tell you what, phone Honda and tell them the dampers they've been using for years on all their cars are crap because some ****** with a suspension dyno says so

 

*sigh*

 

It's incredible how guys won't spend money on a header or cams or some other engine part unless they can "see the numbers", but they'll buy a damper without knowing a damn thing about why they should pick that damper over a different one. Brilliant!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It's incredible how guys won't spend money on a header or cams or some other engine part unless they can "see the numbers", but they'll buy a damper without knowing a damn thing about why they should pick that damper over a different one. Brilliant! </TD></TR></TABLE>

True, but shock tuning is such a black-art that it's difficult to throw one on a dyno (that not a lot of places have) and know if it'll do exactly what you want it to.

Then we get into double and triple adjustable shocks...guarantee that only 1 out of every 25 tuner shops *might* have an idea how to set these up.

But for Grant to just throw out blanket statements about certain brands, it makes his testing look less valid. He should stick with what he's worked with extensively, not extrapolate data points from one odd shock that he's tested and assume the entire brand is crap.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It's incredible how guys won't spend money on a header or cams or some other engine part unless they can "see the numbers", but they'll buy a damper without knowing a damn thing about why they should pick that damper over a different one. Brilliant! </TD></TR></TABLE>Normaly, I stay away from debate like this. But, let me put in my two cents
cams (I picked it because it is one of the few performance parts that realy worth spend money on) give you a very consistent and predictable performance when compare to suspension parts and "the numbers" don't lie On the other hand, suspension parts that "show better" result on the dyno over another suspension parts don't nessesary "do better" in real life performance because the road condition is "inconsistent and unpredictable". Only road test and actual racing results are worth to go by

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It's incredible how guys won't spend money on a header or cams or some other engine part unless they can "see the numbers", but they'll buy a damper without knowing a damn thing about why they should pick that damper over a different one. Brilliant! </TD></TR></TABLE>


after you phone Honda, phone the Honda F1 racing team and tell them that some auto-x guy in the U.S. reckons Showa are crap because his suspension dyno says so.

when you get tired of hearing them crying with laughter on the other end of the phone, put it down again.

let's use an obligatory at this point.

in fact, let's use another one

I just don't know what gives you and this other loser the right to call a well respected, successful and very competant suspension manufacturer "crap" just because of a stupid graph printout on a dyno. When anyone else that has a gram of sense and has used their stuff knows how good they are IN REAL LIFE. Quite obviously fanbois.

I'm done with this thread, peace.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Todd00 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

True, but shock tuning is such a black-art that it's difficult to throw one on a dyno (that not a lot of places have) and know if it'll do exactly what you want it to.

Then we get into double and triple adjustable shocks...guarantee that only 1 out of every 25 tuner shops *might* have an idea how to set these up.

But for Grant to just throw out blanket statements about certain brands, it makes his testing look less valid. He should stick with what he's worked with extensively, not extrapolate data points from one odd shock that he's tested and assume the entire brand is crap.</TD></TR></TABLE>

It's a black art because hardly anyone goes out and learns what to look for in a shock dyno and why. Calling it a "black art" is the same as saying "I don't understand it and I don't care to, so I'll simply call it voodoo".

At any rate, we aren't talking about good on the dyno and bad in the real world. The sins of many of the JDM brand dampers are plentiful. Want adjusters that don't do ****, but give you 36 clicks? Buy something that wasn't on his list. Want adjusters that have absurd amounts of crosstalk? Again, something that wasn't on his list. Want limited adjustment range, adjustments that are opposite of expected, adjustments that screw up the curve, or bump forces that will knock your teeth out? Yep, something not on his list. However, if you want to buy something that has repeatable, effective adjustments that alter the forces in a predictable manner and in a broad enough range to actually matter then you'll want something in that list. Does that mean that EVERYTHING not on his list is crap? No. If you read his site though, the intent is not to convince you to only buy from the list of dampers he provided, the intent is to make you use your head to buy parts.

Do you think your dampers have wrongly been villafied? Get the white papers detailing their construction (the damper equivalent of looking at the welds on a header), get the dyno's, in short, do your research. If not, you might want to just get that FANBOI vanity plate.

Knowledge is power. Ignoring tasty nuggets of free information because of some bias or dislike of the person or delivery is truly deserving of

 

As far as giving credit to the creator of the article, he is good at what he does and I will certainly use some of his in-sight. Other than that, this is what he wrote in the article and it sum up pretty much who he is: "Shocks
Now its time for damping. I set mine according to the suspension velocity histograms, (which I'll describe later) but roughly 65% critical damping is almost always perfect. Why? I don't know; it just seems to work that way. Set 'em to 65% critical, and be done with it."