What was Honda's reason for making them for the B18C? Any advantages or disadvantages in terms of compression, cylinder wall sealing, or reliabilty? When are they recommended or not?

Lloyd~whose curious about pistons

 

When rebuilding an engine it is recommended to bore/hone the block to ensure the bore is true. That's why Honda sells oversize pistons.

 

Thanx Reid

 

Is it necessary to use oversize pistons when you bore and hone the cylinder wall?

 

Hone, ... not necessarily.

Bore, ... YES/Definately!

 

And why is that? Honing should always be done IMO.. the cross hatch marks hold lubrication.

 

what exactly IS honing?

 

That is NOT why they are there.

 

you got it backwards.
bore, not necessarily
hone, definitely

they sell oversize pistons because in the event that the cylinder wall becomes
damaged, you can repair it by making it slightly larger.

 

Ok. TELL me WHAT they ARE for THEN instead OF holding BACK..

 

I was under the impression he asked when you need oversize pistons (or actually what they're for).

If you're just going to use STOCK size CTR pistons, wouldn't you just hone it and use the stock size?
However, if you bore it (bigger to compensate for badly sctatched walls), ... THEN you'd need oversize pistons. no?

 

Bump..

I'd still like to know why D thinks this. There's always somone out there who's more "right" than you..

 

hey, not to hijack this post, but i got a quick question, what will you guy use for bearing when rebuilding the engine? anyone heard of king engine bearing? any good?

 

They help wear the rings into the same shape as the cylander during break-in.

 

I assume you mean "bearings?" Why would you not use honda main and rod bearings for a rebuild, especially with oem parts? I think you will find the general concensus is that honda bearings are best.

 

ahhh hell just bore AND hone the damn thing.

 

Reeaaaaaaaally? Is this the hidden reason? Or is someone else going to jump in and say that it's "NOT." The MAIN REASON is for lubrication, no matter what other reasons come after it. I really wouldn't say they are there to help the rings "seat" because the rings will seat in a cylinder even if it isn't honed. It's not like the hatch marks dissapear after the rings have seated. They help SEAL by holding tiny amounts of lubrication which moves along the hatch line grooves, and is stored in the area where the hatch marks cross each other. By the way, Volkswagen doesn't hone their cylinders (they might have used to).. they don't have seating problems.

 

yes it is the reason, and its not hidden

help seat the rings

 

The cross-hatching does disappear over time as the rings wear.

 

There was a thread regarding break in a while ago. Someone posted a link to an interesting article. To roughly sum it up from memory:
-the sole purpose or the hatching was to help the cylander walls and rings conform to each other perfectly during break in
- the hatching is worn off in the first 20 miles of driving
-the rings are pressed againsed the walls the hardest under load
-proper break-in= drive hard

I wish I had saved it.

 

Exactly, thats why you deglaze, hone etc. when rebuilding.

 

Sole purpose? No ..again. By the way, it's a cylinder.

Uh.. no.

No way?! And if your pistons are scraping against the cylinder walls, then you will wear the marks off.

WoW! Now that's an AMAZING statement. Ruin your engine the first 20 miles and you're good to go.

Lucky you didn't..

This thread is a prime example of the type of idiots on this forum who CANNOT be wrong. Especially in the ITR forum, there's too many know-it-alls.

I'll say it again.. the MAIN purpose is lubrication. The rings WILL SEAT in a cylinder REGARDLESS of whether it is honed or not.

If you want to get super technical, instead of just bluntly stating something, maybe you should explain things with some reasoning.

What is your reason for saying the hone marks help the rings seat? Tell me, otherwise it's a waste of time to state that. While you're at it, maybe you should explain what "seating" REALLY is! What happens to the rings while they are seating, huh? Why else do you hone the cylinders? There are plenty of benefits that come from honing. The MAIN damn reason is lubrication - oil travels ALONG the hatch lines as the rings compress up against them. When the rings back away from the lines, the oil gathers in the spots where the hatch marks cross (where an angle is formed).

 

I am not trying to be a know it all. Infact, my knowledge is limited when it comes to cylinders, rings, hatching, and the like.

Could it be possible that the hatching and the rings wear each other? Is that wear how the rings seat? I don't know. Why don't you instruct me on what really goes on. How do the cylinder walls remain lubericated after the hatching wears off? Magic?

Edit: removed childish namecalling.


[Modified by Dr Pooface, 3:11 PM 2/16/2003]

 

Found the link, Nameless: http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

Now don't get all excited. In no way do I agree or dissagree with what the author has to say. It's just something that interested me.

[edit] spelling, lest I get dickslapped.


[Modified by Dr Pooface, 3:02 PM 2/16/2003]

 

I wasn't putting that whole post towards you... and like you said to me in the "AEM CAI version 2" thread.. "don't be so sensitive" right?

If the marks wear off, you still have lubrication from splash coming off the crank or oil squirters. The oil ring/s (sometimes more than one) on the pistons hold lubrication as well. Also, some pistons are designed with markings in the skirt, which help spread lubrication along the cylinder walls.

In a sense, everyones assumption is right in here. The honing helps the rings seat. Honing helps with lubrication and sealing. And honing helps smoothen out the cylinder after it's been bored, etc. What I didn't get, is why everyone seems to think the main reason is to help the rings seat. Sure, it helps. But they are also there for reliability purposes. Rings will wear themselves (seating) even if there is no lubrication, that would be kindof fucked up though...

The cylinder walls are made of stronger metal/s than the rings as well. That plays a big role when the rings are seating, because you don't want the rings to damage or wear the cylinder walls. After they are all seated properly, they will relax more and everything will come together better (lubrication, compression, sealing, etc).

When the rings are wearing themselves in, what's happening is the edges of the rings are wearing down, and the sharp edges are coming to a smoothness. Which is why you should take it easy on breakin, because you don't want the ring edges to scuff the walls. After the edges are worn down, the middle surface of the rings seal it. That part doesn't wear down as far as the edges. Some rings are designed without the sharp edge, so the manufacturer can tell you "there's no need to breakin" the car. But in most cases, that's not true. There's more to breakin than just the rings..

If you take apart your engine, one of the main things you should do is look at the hone marks. If they are gone, you need to rehone (possibly bore) the cylinders again. It's not a terribly bad thing if they are gone, you still have plenty of lubrication, but you may not have a good seal (edit: and you may be burning oil). If the engine has been beat on pretty badly, you'll probably see more wear in the front and back of the cylinders, it sounded like you know that though. If the hone marks are missing in those spots, that tells you the cylinders are out of round. So another good thing about them, is they can tell you things when you look at the cylinders.

I'm not trying to start ****.. but there's so many people on this website who don't let others have a chance to be right about something, even though it's plainly obvious they know something others don't. It's usually the ones with the special titles who own ITR's or have built Civics. I've been proven wrong about quite a few little things on this site.. and the arrogant attitude I get is ******* annoying. Please don't ban me for having an opinion.

I hope my little cylinder writeup was informative to some, and others I'm sure have something they'd like to add or point out. I'm not trying to sound genius.. it just so happens that my instructor spent about a week boring us with this information, and I was the only one awake taking it all in.


[Modified by Nameless, 3:52 PM 2/16/2003]