$100-130 for the DEI 689M is f*kin ridiculous, so I plan to use 3 SPST relays as my neutral safety system for my 2K Civic Si.
Wired like this...

E-brake is connected to the wire that shows ground when the E-brake is up
Clutch switch is connected to the switch that shows ground when the clutch is NOT depressed.
Neutral Input is connected to the wire that needs to be grounded before the alarm can remote start.

If it all works as planned you'll have to have the e-brake up and the clutch pedal up when you turn the ignition off for the remote start to work. That's because if the engine is running and the e-brake is up and the clutch is up, then you must be in neutral right? If the clutch is depressed when you turn off the ignition it won't remote start. If you press the clutch any time after the ignition has been turned off if wont remote start. If the e-brake isn't up when you turn the ignition off it wont remote start. If remote start is disabled you will need to start the car for it to be re-enabled.

I believe that the only way it could remote start in gear is if you put the car into gear without pressing the clutch after you've turned it off in neutral. I always press the clutch when shifting even when the car is off so it shouldn't be a problem.

Anyways it's late and I've been working on this for hours. I think I have it all correct , but I was wondering if someone here could check my work in case there's something wrong with my design.


Modified by neonoodle at 12:58 AM 1/2/2008


Modified by neonoodle at 1:00 AM 1/2/2008

 

Everything looks good for the most part. You do realize though that after you turn off the car with the ebrake up the circuit will stay charged as long as the clutch is not depressed. After the car is off the ebrake will not have any effect on the neutral safety output wire.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by White Smoke &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> You do realize though that after you turn off the car with the ebrake up the circuit will stay charged as long as the clutch is not depressed.</TD></TR></TABLE>

would it work better if connected to ignition 12 switch volt instead? or acc output from alarm

 

The remote starter needs to see ground from the e-brake to remote start so I felt there wasn't a need for the e-brake to disable the neutral safety wire. I'm not planning to use standard automotive relays, I just used them to draw up the schematic. I'm planning to use 1-5A computer relays, so the relays that remain energized will consume less power than one 30A Automotive relay. I've had one of those energized for a couple days and the car still started up fine, so I don't think that'll be a problem. I'm still not sure if I can get away with using 1A relay for the neutral safety wire though. It's only a sensor, so it should use very little current right?

 

Maybe it's just me but I don't see how that system is going to latch when all the requirements are met and then the ignition is turned off. The only thing I see that diode doing is keeping the constant from backfeeding into the ignition circuit through the first relay when the second relay is energized. Does anybody else see it that way?




Modified by NismoGriff at 12:04 PM 1/3/2008

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by NismoGriff &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Does anybody else see it that way?</TD></TR></TABLE>

No, once the 2nd relay is latched VIA ebrake, IGN, and clutch then the 1st relay is completely taken out of the equation and the constant 12v will keep the 2nd and 3rd relay charged provided the clutch is not pressed in.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by White Smoke &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

No, once the 2nd relay is latched VIA ebrake, IGN, and clutch then the 1st relay is completely taken out of the equation and the constant 12v will keep the 2nd and 3rd relay charged provided the clutch is not pressed in.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ok, I see it now, i think it is his unconventional method of drawing a relay schematic that was throwing me off. The only thing I would probably do differently would be where you have your ground source on the third relay, I would use the ebrake for that ground also. That way, if somebody did inadvertantly release the ebrake handle AFTER everything was latched, the remote start still would not activate.


Modified by NismoGriff at 12:47 PM 1/3/2008

 

Or you could just do what I do, and teach yourself to leave the car in neutral.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by NismoGriff &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The only thing I would probably do differently would be where you have your ground source on the third relay, I would use the ebrake for that ground also. That way, if somebody did inadvertantly release the ebrake handle AFTER everything was latched, the remote start still would not activate.</TD></TR></TABLE>

That is exactly how I would do it, remedying the e-brake portion I mentioned earlier in the thread.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by White Smoke &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

That is exactly how I would do it, remedying the e-brake portion I mentioned earlier in the thread.</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's what I get for staring at the relay diagram and not reading the other posts before responding, lol.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDM_Ej &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Or you could just do what I do, and teach yourself to leave the car in neutral. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Unless for some reason, somebody else drives or moves your car and leaves it in gear (which I always do) then you have problems if you remote start it.

I personally don't think it is a good idea for remote start on a manual trans vehicle, even those systems/modules designed for it. I will admit though, recently I have been having thought of putting it on my truck which is 5 spd, but I lend my truck out to friends/family and I just don't want to risk it. So I just deal with the cold

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by NismoGriff &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Unless for some reason, somebody else drives or moves your car and leaves it in gear (which I always do) then you have problems if you remote start it.

I personally don't think it is a good idea for remote start on a manual trans vehicle, even those systems/modules designed for it. I will admit though, recently I have been having thought of putting it on my truck which is 5 spd, but I lend my truck out to friends/family and I just don't want to risk it. So I just deal with the cold </TD></TR></TABLE>

I made a habit of leaving my car in neutral long before I installed the starter.

 

using relays as digital circuits IMO is dumb. Go get a digital circuits books spend 30min reading and design a correct circuit. Your circuit will pull far more current then needed and doesn't protect the car from someone opening the door and sticking the car in gear after this thing activates.

 

Thanks to everyone who gave me helpful advice.

Here's my revised schematic...


These are the relays I'm planning to use at the moment.
http://www.radioshack.com/prod...62481
http://www.radioshack.com/prod...62483

Any further suggestions? My new alarm arrives next week and it's going in next weekend!


Modified by neonoodle at 6:37 PM 1/5/2008

 

did this end up working the way it was supposed to?

 

So how did it go?

 

Yeah really, how did it go?

 

the way i see it once you charge up the relay it going to keep it charged and drain your battery possibly over night or by second day.

 

a relay will not drain your battery in a day...

unless you have a really, really, small battery...

 

All of your idea are dumb because it still doesn't solve the problem of it being in gear and flying into another car or something else.

This is what I think could work.
If you putting a switch on the shift linkage (the one that's stationary, does not move) and something like a half oval on the linkage that move so it would hit the switch when in neutral. So if you are in gear it will not let you start the car because the switch will be off. Hook the switch to the neutral/parking line to the alarm.

 

putting a switch on the linkage isn't easy...

The relay diagram works sorta...

in order to apply the e-brake, when the car is on, without depressing the clutch is to have the car in neutral.

Once you turn off the car, you cannot press the clutch..

If you press the clutch, the relay disables the neutral ground.

However, you could turn the car off, then put it to ON(I) then shift into gear... which would screw up the system...

-----------------------------------------

I don't have a manual car to try this out on... but..

If you take some magnets, and put them on the shifter - close to the pivot point, under the interior shifter boot...

And then put magnetic reed switches at the shift gates/end points...

you can set it up so those detect if the car is in gear.

problem is mounting the reed switches, and finding magnets that are strong enough to engage the switch when it is close to the switch, but not strong enough to engage the switch when it its in the middle or neutral position.

OR (just thought of this)

Get some thin flexible strips of metal... and some non conductive tape

Attach the strips to the shifter near the pivot point...

Mark the metal strips in the neutral position.... then coat the metal with the tape upto that mark, starting from the outside.

set up those strips to ground or when the shifter isn't in neutral.

I would draw something up, but i don't have the tools/time atm...

problem with this setup is you could get some binding, if it wasn't done right...
the binding would prevent you from shifting, if the strips are too stiff...

 

Again using clucky relays as digital circuits is dumb. Its a drain on the battery. People like to do things the hard way.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bpr0422 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">p
I don't have a manual car to try this out on... but..

If you take some magnets, and put them on the shifter - close to the pivot point, under the interior shifter boot...

And then put magnetic reed switches at the shift gates/end points...

you can set it up so those detect if the car is in gear.

problem is mounting the reed switches, and finding magnets that are strong enough to engage the switch when it is close to the switch, but not strong enough to engage the switch when it its in the middle or neutral position.

OR (just thought of this)

Get some thin flexible strips of metal... and some non conductive tape

Attach the strips to the shifter near the pivot point...

Mark the metal strips in the neutral position.... then coat the metal with the tape upto that mark, starting from the outside.

set up those strips to ground or when the shifter isn't in neutral.

I would draw something up, but i don't have the tools/time atm...

problem with this setup is you could get some binding, if it wasn't done right...
the binding would prevent you from shifting, if the strips are too stiff...</TD></TR></TABLE>


I saw this set up shown on a cardomain page in a guys 240sx, he had a big disclaimer stating he was not liable for anything ect, but the idea is the best sound idea possible.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxxtreme &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">using relays as digital circuits IMO is dumb. Go get a digital circuits books spend 30min reading and design a correct circuit. Your circuit will pull far more current then needed and doesn't protect the car from someone opening the door and sticking the car in gear after this thing activates.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Could you explain this a bit more, I get the logic, but I don't know how to implement it.

Let q = state, I = ignition, E = eBrake, and C = clutch

When I is 1 the car is on
When E is 1 the eBrake is up
When C is 1 the clutch is up

When q is 1 output ground to the alarm (allowing the system to be started).



This is a simple state machine, always falling back to state 0 unless the conditions are met allowing the car to start. Damn on one hand I feel like a nerd for doing this and on another I am a noob because I have no idea how to implement it

 

"That doesn't make any sense."