Honda lost money on ITR's?
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Honda lost money on ITR's?
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Type_R
An interesting and little publicised fact about the 1996-2001 DC2 Type R is that Honda lost money on every single vehicle sold, even though extra dealer markups sometimes made for excessive dealer profit. Honda produced the DC2 Type R for homologation purposes to meet FIA certification of the motor and the chassis changes to make the car more competitive in N-series and World Cup racing. The details required, hand tooling in early versions and finishing the product through the use of various small fabrication shops in Japan made for increased costs in manufacture that could not be made up in the list price of the vehicles. Honda (and Acura in the US) deemed the car important for the marque's image and important for the racing programmes of the era, and the parent company therefore accepted a financial net loss on each vehicle sold.
Interesting. Anyone ever hear of this before? This is a first for me.
An interesting and little publicised fact about the 1996-2001 DC2 Type R is that Honda lost money on every single vehicle sold, even though extra dealer markups sometimes made for excessive dealer profit. Honda produced the DC2 Type R for homologation purposes to meet FIA certification of the motor and the chassis changes to make the car more competitive in N-series and World Cup racing. The details required, hand tooling in early versions and finishing the product through the use of various small fabrication shops in Japan made for increased costs in manufacture that could not be made up in the list price of the vehicles. Honda (and Acura in the US) deemed the car important for the marque's image and important for the racing programmes of the era, and the parent company therefore accepted a financial net loss on each vehicle sold.
Interesting. Anyone ever hear of this before? This is a first for me.
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Re: Honda lost money on ITR's? (SuckMyDOHC)
I think that at least some of this is true. I heard somewhere that there were no Type R's brought to U.S. in 1999 because Honda didn't make any profit or actually lost money.
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Re: Honda lost money on ITR's? (SuckMyDOHC)
Unsure if thats true
but i wouldnt trust Wikipedia....theres a lot of
on there
do you honestly think they would produce the car for 5 years if it was for a loss
but i wouldnt trust Wikipedia....theres a lot of
on theredo you honestly think they would produce the car for 5 years if it was for a loss
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Re: Honda lost money on ITR's? (Morty)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Morty »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Unsure if thats true
but i wouldnt trust Wikipedia....theres a lot of on there
do you honestly think they would produce the car for 5 years if it was for a loss</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yeah, I don't really trust wikipedia either but most of what he wrote is the info I have heard in the past (no sure how true is it though).
Anyways, Honda brougth Type R to U.S. for 4 years, not 5. Don't forget that there were no Type R's in 1999 (Only Canada got those).
but i wouldnt trust Wikipedia....theres a lot of
on theredo you honestly think they would produce the car for 5 years if it was for a loss</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yeah, I don't really trust wikipedia either but most of what he wrote is the info I have heard in the past (no sure how true is it though).
Anyways, Honda brougth Type R to U.S. for 4 years, not 5. Don't forget that there were no Type R's in 1999 (Only Canada got those).
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Re: Honda lost money on ITR's? (00TypeR1071)
It was my understanding that the early JDM ITR's where $$$ loser's at the time. Back when they where doing many of the assembling and modifacations by hand. I saw a video one time that showed early JDM ITR's at Feel's tuner shop getting adjustments from their shop during the assembly process.
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Re: Honda lost money on ITR's? (KOALA YUMMIES)
Yes, some of this is true if not all of it. There's a reason there are have been no Type R models offered by American Honda for the past 6 years and money has a big part to do with it.
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Re: Honda lost money on ITR's? (vivid 02)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vivid 02 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> overpriced civic with some mugen acc instead of a real R.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
</TD></TR></TABLE>
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From: Scary NorthEast, usa
It is waste of money for Honda in retrofit any R's to meet US's EPA & DOT standard which end up loosing money since it is not a high value car. Look what happened in 99 with no R in US because 97&98 still have EPA issues.
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Re: (machgo5go)
Audi lost money on the first generation of Coupe Quatros.
GM lost money on the whole EV1 fiasco.
Toyota loses money on every Prius it sells.
Sometimes a manufacturer who is in good shape financially but needs an image boost will take that chance. How many Priuses do you think Toyota would sell ig they were priced at or above $30,000? Sure, they would still sell to the rich and famous people who want to make a statement but the average Joe wouldn't pay 30 grand for a compact car.
About 10 years ago Honda developed an Accord with a special catalytic converter that actually cleaned the air. So the stuff coming out the exhaust was cleaner than what was going in the intake. They could have produced them for about a million dollars per car but nobody will pay that for an Accord. Now days it's fairly common for cars to pull off this amazing feat, at least in heavily polluted areas.
GM lost money on the whole EV1 fiasco.
Toyota loses money on every Prius it sells.
Sometimes a manufacturer who is in good shape financially but needs an image boost will take that chance. How many Priuses do you think Toyota would sell ig they were priced at or above $30,000? Sure, they would still sell to the rich and famous people who want to make a statement but the average Joe wouldn't pay 30 grand for a compact car.
About 10 years ago Honda developed an Accord with a special catalytic converter that actually cleaned the air. So the stuff coming out the exhaust was cleaner than what was going in the intake. They could have produced them for about a million dollars per car but nobody will pay that for an Accord. Now days it's fairly common for cars to pull off this amazing feat, at least in heavily polluted areas.
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Re: Honda lost money on ITR's? (00TypeR1071)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 00TypeR1071 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Anyways, Honda brougth Type R to U.S. for 4 years, not 5. Don't forget that there were no Type R's in 1999 (Only Canada got those). </TD></TR></TABLE>
He, He
Don't forget too, only WE got the red interiors in 2001 too, In CW.....He, He
He, He
Don't forget too, only WE got the red interiors in 2001 too, In CW.....He, He
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Re: Honda lost money on ITR's? (1250b18c5)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1250b18c5 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
He, He
Don't forget too, only WE got the red interiors in 2001 too, In CW.....He, He
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Y must u have to remind of the good stuff we dont get....
He, He
Don't forget too, only WE got the red interiors in 2001 too, In CW.....He, He
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Y must u have to remind of the good stuff we dont get....
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Re: Honda lost money on ITR's? (00TypeR1071)
I believe the information in that entry is true. However, the ITR is also somewhat unusual in that respect, because it's a variation of a higher-volume model. For that reason, the cost of designing/producing/selling the ITR does not involve huge fixed costs, because most of the development costs (a big component of fixed costs) have already been done. They didn't need to spend any money at all on designing the body panels (other than the wing, side sills, bumpers), the electrical accessories (those that were still included 
), or many of the other components. So if they lost money on the ITR, it was in actual production costs for each car, which are marginal costs (costs incurred as each one is built) rather than fixed costs.
The more typical scenario regarding "image cars" ("halo cars") is a separate model which doesn't share a lot of componentry. The NSX is a perfect example. The typical development cost for an all-new model is anywhere from half a billion to a billion dollars (yes, billion with a B). It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that when you spend $500,000,000 (being conservative here) on developing a car and it sells 19,000 cars worldwide throughout its run, those fixed costs work out to over $25,000 per car. Add that to the costs of actually building the car, and that was certainly a money-loser for Honda.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 00TypeR1071 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I heard somewhere that there were no Type R's brought to U.S. in 1999 because Honda didn't make any profit or actually lost money.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm quite certain that the reason they didn't sell ITRs in 1999 is because they had a hard time selling them in 1998. Many ITRs sat in dealer showrooms for months. That was not the case when they brought them back for 2000-2001. Probably because they didn't make them in boring white.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Type_RS_59 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">About 10 years ago Honda developed an Accord with a special catalytic converter that actually cleaned the air. So the stuff coming out the exhaust was cleaner than what was going in the intake. They could have produced them for about a million dollars per car but nobody will pay that for an Accord. Now days it's fairly common for cars to pull off this amazing feat, at least in heavily polluted areas.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Actually, it is not at all common for cars today to have exhaust with less pollution than the air going into the engine. I believe the current Accord does it. There may be one or two others I'm not aware of, but I'm not even sure about that, and in any case, not many at all.
), or many of the other components. So if they lost money on the ITR, it was in actual production costs for each car, which are marginal costs (costs incurred as each one is built) rather than fixed costs.The more typical scenario regarding "image cars" ("halo cars") is a separate model which doesn't share a lot of componentry. The NSX is a perfect example. The typical development cost for an all-new model is anywhere from half a billion to a billion dollars (yes, billion with a B). It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that when you spend $500,000,000 (being conservative here) on developing a car and it sells 19,000 cars worldwide throughout its run, those fixed costs work out to over $25,000 per car. Add that to the costs of actually building the car, and that was certainly a money-loser for Honda.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 00TypeR1071 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I heard somewhere that there were no Type R's brought to U.S. in 1999 because Honda didn't make any profit or actually lost money.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm quite certain that the reason they didn't sell ITRs in 1999 is because they had a hard time selling them in 1998. Many ITRs sat in dealer showrooms for months. That was not the case when they brought them back for 2000-2001. Probably because they didn't make them in boring white.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Type_RS_59 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">About 10 years ago Honda developed an Accord with a special catalytic converter that actually cleaned the air. So the stuff coming out the exhaust was cleaner than what was going in the intake. They could have produced them for about a million dollars per car but nobody will pay that for an Accord. Now days it's fairly common for cars to pull off this amazing feat, at least in heavily polluted areas.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Actually, it is not at all common for cars today to have exhaust with less pollution than the air going into the engine. I believe the current Accord does it. There may be one or two others I'm not aware of, but I'm not even sure about that, and in any case, not many at all.
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Re: Honda lost money on ITR's? (nsxtasy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Actually, it is not at all common for cars today to have exhaust with less pollution than the air going into the engine. I believe the current Accord does it. There may be one or two others I'm not aware of, but I'm not even sure about that, and in any case, not many at all.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Top Gear claims that the new 911 Turbo is capable of it if it is running in a fairly dirty environment such as NY, LA or London. I figure if a 500+ HP beast like that can do it, most relatively efficient Japanese cars should have no problem whatsoever!
As for the ITR, I think a lot of the money was wrapped up in things like wind tunnel testing, track testing and all of the finishing work on the engines that was done by hand. Sure, most of the development and manufacturing was already done but it takes money to push anything to a higher level. Plus, things like the Recaro seats for the JDM models and the light weight wheels must have cost Honda a hell of a lot more than the standard versions did.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Top Gear claims that the new 911 Turbo is capable of it if it is running in a fairly dirty environment such as NY, LA or London. I figure if a 500+ HP beast like that can do it, most relatively efficient Japanese cars should have no problem whatsoever!
As for the ITR, I think a lot of the money was wrapped up in things like wind tunnel testing, track testing and all of the finishing work on the engines that was done by hand. Sure, most of the development and manufacturing was already done but it takes money to push anything to a higher level. Plus, things like the Recaro seats for the JDM models and the light weight wheels must have cost Honda a hell of a lot more than the standard versions did.
Re: Honda lost money on ITR's? (1250b18c5)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1250b18c5 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
He, He
Don't forget too, only WE got the red interiors in 2001 too, In CW.....He, He
</TD></TR></TABLE>Personally, I'm glad Honda decided not to equipe U.S ITR with the horrendous looking all red seats. To each his or her own
He, He
Don't forget too, only WE got the red interiors in 2001 too, In CW.....He, He
</TD></TR></TABLE>Personally, I'm glad Honda decided not to equipe U.S ITR with the horrendous looking all red seats. To each his or her own
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Re: Honda lost money on ITR's? (ColinMc)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ColinMc »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">30K for a civic, Ha...makes me laugh everytime I think about it.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well. The 1997 $25,000 ITR was just a 200 HP Civic, right? And if you compound the 10 years of changes, 25K in 1997 was more than 30K in 2007.
Well. The 1997 $25,000 ITR was just a 200 HP Civic, right? And if you compound the 10 years of changes, 25K in 1997 was more than 30K in 2007.
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Re: Honda lost money on ITR's? (MattyP)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MattyP »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Good point, but IMO a ITR is far beyond a 4DR SI...</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm really not sure I'd agree. They're both 200 HP Civic-based vehicles with halfway decent suspensions and LSD.
The ITR enjoys some relatively esoteric advantages like double wishbones (the advantage of which most of us will never fully realise), and a more direct shifter.
However, the Civic Si is a much, much safer vehicle with much more modern accoutrements and refinement.
I think that in our enthusiastic pursuit of our sport we tend to forget that the ITR was a design that first hit the streets 15 years ago in its basic form (fall of 2003 JDM Integra).
I'm really not sure I'd agree. They're both 200 HP Civic-based vehicles with halfway decent suspensions and LSD.
The ITR enjoys some relatively esoteric advantages like double wishbones (the advantage of which most of us will never fully realise), and a more direct shifter.
However, the Civic Si is a much, much safer vehicle with much more modern accoutrements and refinement.
I think that in our enthusiastic pursuit of our sport we tend to forget that the ITR was a design that first hit the streets 15 years ago in its basic form (fall of 2003 JDM Integra).
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Re: Honda lost money on ITR's? (George Knighton)
Oh im not saying that the SI is not a performer, but in driving both of them, The SI just feels to soft, or what's the word im looking for...Kinda feels more like a damn caddy...lol It's so plush and smooth, unlike a DC2...But like i said...Just my opinion
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Re: Honda lost money on ITR's? (MattyP)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MattyP »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Oh im not saying that the SI is not a performer, but in driving both of them, The SI just feels to soft, or what's the word im looking for...Kinda feels more like a damn caddy...lol It's so plush and smooth, unlike a DC2...But like i said...Just my opinion</TD></TR></TABLE>
I think you are trying to say the "R feels more raw and nimble"?
I think you are trying to say the "R feels more raw and nimble"?