http://forums.roadfly.org/bmw/forums...=501698&page=1

 

Ouch...

 

Thoroughly entertaining.

Hybrid anyone?

 

I'm sure that engine will be sold for more than most of our cars are worth.

 

walls 0wn j00!

 

I was just thinking Summit Point ought to buy a forklift. Woulda helped speed up all those EVs last weekend An articulated Cat loader with forks instead of a bucket would be perfect!

Forklifts 0wn j00!!!

Joel

 

ouch that one almost made me cry.............
i'm over here dreaming about a M3 and some dude at a track is
wrecking a M3 to pieces.

 

Hey, I've at least got to give him credit for carrying it out there... I could be sitting in the garage gathering dust like many of them.

 

just chatted with a guy who was there on thursday and said he was almost black flagged and warned several times that day. but evidently this happened on the next day, which means he still didnt get the hint because he was losing it at 2 successive turns just before he ended up in the wall. in order to have lost it at the entrance of pit lane, he must have come thru turn 15 REAL hot. its not about being at 10/10ths, its just driving dumb. i just find it outrageous that the stewards were still letting him on after he repeatedly made mistakes. i guess he was just asking for it. i am confident they would not have allowed this to have happened if it was run by the actual track school, not this private club called Speed Ventures. i've made repeated mistakes before, maybe im just lucky and this guy isnt, but hey, im just glad everyones safe.




i just finished checking out the speed ventures website who hosted this event. im aghast at how they organize their events. they have 3 run groups based on "experience". BUT they actually allow ppl to rent a transponder and COMPETE for best lap times as if it was qualifying, amongst the ppl who dont rent. WTF! on a normal track school, its given that there is NO RACING allowed which keeps ppl mostly sane. plus, theres NO licensing or testing to prove you are capable of pushing the car, AND no requirements for safety equipment (rollcage, minimal clothing). someone needs to blow the whistle on this.



[Modified by Tyson, 4:50 PM 6/25/2002]

 

*****I was just thinking Summit Point ought to buy a forklift. Woulda helped speed up all those EVs last weekend An articulated Cat loader with forks instead of a bucket would be perfect!
Forklifts 0wn j00!!!*****


I got a better plan.

Stay on the damn track.

Grumpy


[Modified by Grumpy, 3:15 AM 6/26/2002]

 

Grumpy 0wnz j00!

 

Oh. My.

I think they may have trouble aligning that.

Matt-observing a moment of silence.....

 

hey now. the organizers can't always be responsible for what people want to do. each crash needs to be examined and judged on case by case basis. in this case I don't think the driver brought it to himself. speedventure (used to call WurthMotorsports/Bitterman's TimeTrial) are run by good guys, and their events are pretty good. Not heavily instructor focus (they only give us $15 off a day for instructing, not worth the headache IMO, for me atleast) so what do you expect. Their inter and advanced groups and filled with good/experienced drivers.

The fact that they let the M3 guy out suggests he probably was endangering no one else but himself. So he crashed it. Big deal. He was warned.

Differnet event organizers has a little differnet flavor and focus. If anyone is looking for a time trial events at good pricing with lots of seat time, speedventures is the way to go. They have an event coming up in July 12 at big Wilow Springs for only $120. That's a good deal.





[Modified by frank@b16a.com, 8:21 AM 6/26/2002]

 

frank, you see my point tho right? i mean, they're putting on a competitive event and mixing it up with instruction. time trials should be run solo, at least for the sake of safety. i dont mean to jump on someone because he made a mistake and kick him while he's down, we all make mistakes and hindsight is almost perfect. but i really cant endorse an event that motivates ppl to push them selves over the line with other ppl on the track who dont necessarily share that view.

 

i'd have to disagree there... everyone is responsible for themselves ultimately. if you're on track and see something you don't like, you report it to the organizer, and you stay away from the trouble maker.

how safe you are at track is really in your control. at some events we have open passing, and it's almost racing! but it's not... we give each other room. track safety is all about communications, as long as the drivers on track are on the same page, it's great.

like i said, differnet events have differnet flavor. if ppl want good instruction, you gotta pay for it. tracQuest event have the best balance of price/seattime/instruction/food/atmosphere.

that M3 crash is getting around and i think people are judging the event organizers unfairly. i have ran with them a few times and they are good.



[Modified by frank@b16a.com, 11:55 AM 6/26/2002]

 

alright if you say so. since you actually experienced participating in their events, i cant check you on this any further its just my opinion. my friend was there the previous day, had i known speedventures is more of a time trial, i would have told him to stay home and do thunderhill street school. he ended up blowing his engine anyway (celica tranny problems allow you to downshift from 4 to 1...)

 

4-1 down shift? damn, i think they synchros works good!

i do see your point about organiser needing to keep track of idiots on track. there will always be some, but it's just one or two bad apples. if he was not passing dangerously or harassing other drivers, why can't he explore the limits? that's the whole point of playing on the track isn't it?

if you want something strict, try BMW club events. they are very ****. at last years NSX Club event (many instructors from BMW club) they black flagged me for "running too fast". I locked up the brakes going into turn one (ABS engages), the car was never sideways, the Kumho Ecasta 712 street tires are just noisy pigs to start with... to me that's excessive organizational control.


[Modified by frank@b16a.com, 12:26 PM 6/26/2002]

 

Hi. I'm one of the event organizers, and I just wanted to clear some things up. I'm not going to comment on this particular incident just because I don't think it's appropriate for me to do so. I'm going to comment on our safety practices, because I think people are making some assumptions that are mistaken.

First of all, spins are not freebies at our events. After any spin or four wheels off, you are black flagged and talked to about it. If you spin again, you are talked to again. If you spin again, you sit out a session. Spin a 4th time, and you're done. No one spun 4 times at this event.

On timing and the safety of doing it with non-timing people present. First of all, the car in question wasn't timing, so this shouldn't even apply, but we'll talk in general terms....

We are not the only group allowing timing people to run with non-timing people. NASA does it. POC does it. Most groups that own a timing system do it. 99% of groups that don't own a timing system do it, if only by not policing the use of hot lap timers. One of the things that actually makes our events SAFER than many is that you can never pass someone without a point by, and timing doesn't change that. This may seem at odds with the whole concept of timing, but the reality is, as we stress at our events, that this is not a race. Drivers get 5 x 30 minute sessions in pretty small run groups, and in that time they'll get plenty of opportunities for clear timing laps without having to resort to unsignalled passes. It's a concession we make for safety, and it works well.

We provide the framework to have safe, fun events. We do not run without corner workers, as some groups do. We do not run without an ambulance present. We do not run a free-for-all where anything goes. We also do not persecute quick drivers for being quick, or people for pushing the limits. There are inherent risks involved in driving a car on the track (or on the street for that matter), and we make sure our drivers know that, and realize that they, ultimately, are responsible for themselves. The only perfectly safe track event is one that doesn't happen, but then no one would be having any fun.

We take reasonable precautions. We go out there to have fun in as safe an environment as would still allow for accessible fun. And overall, we have a great group of drivers with whom we have a good time.

 

Thanks for the reply. How can you say a competitively timed event is not racing? Allowing ppl to time themselves (stopwatch or hotlap), and even renting transponders to facilitate timing is one thing, but to make a competition out of it means racing. I'm all for fun and controlled motorsports. Its a great hobby, I assume my own risk everytime I get out on the track, and I would think everyone else does as well at the same level when I'm on the track, unfortunately I dont see that in your event with the inherent dichotomy.

 

Well, it's certainly qualifiying, but I wouldn't call it racing at all. Racing, to my mind, is a wheel to wheel, swapping paint, dive in on him in the corners kind of thing. This is nothing like that. People are running for time, but they know they'll have the free laps available (meaning no one near them on the track) to get their times. They know they don't need to dive past people, etc. They know that if they pass without a point-by, it's going to be a major issue.

I guess the point is I don't consider this racing in exactly the same way I don't consider auto-x racing. They're both going for time, but they're not taking the risks inherent in actual racing to do so...

 

fine, ill take the history of only one major 1 car accident and enforcement of point by passes as a well regulated and safe (enough) mode of operating a fun event.

and be quiet about autox not being "racing" you might offend a lot of ppl here...

 

I don't think that M3 could have made it back out for the fourth try...

 

Tyson,

There is a difference between wheel-to-wheel racing, time trialing, qualifying, autocrossing, hotlapping, a DE event, and a school. Each has its own set of parameters. I'll assume you're not against each of these individually, but that you object to mixing up any of them in the same run group (not event). I also assume you are not against timing since it is prevalent at all but the beginner school format events, and is a very instructional and valuable tool to learn how to drive well on the track (which is what all of this is about).

As far as the "Qualifying" format we run, the only possible objection you could have is that people will drive crazy and crash into each other. But, fortunately, this isn't the case.

Our events are as safe as any other non-school track event and a hell of a lot of fun. Your perception is very different from the reality. Certainly you can't judge Speed Ventures from one incident and a few jpegs.

To find out... go to http://www.speedventures.net and sign up.

dt

 

dt, your assumption are completely correct on how i feel. i still do find it an odd mixing. not that anyone would purposely drive crazy to lead to an incident, but you have to admit that the feeling of competition can skew a persons judgement. im not completely judging this format on this one result and omitting many successful events, it just comes as a shock to me that you could mix the two successfully without further incident.

 

Yes, wryly put. I suspect you're right, but I was responding to the post on the roadfly that said he had spun 4 times and we had done nothing.