Okay I decided just to copy'n'paste into this thread since I wasn't getting much luck in the other.

Is this the correct process? I was told this as well (by my father actually). The reason I ask is that... well semi-short story first:

I am having a problem with my brakes after an hour at the track Saturday. (Hallett) I had recently installed brand new Hawk HP Plus pads all around, and had my honda brake fluid flushed with new Valvoline SynPower by a local mechanic (I didn't know how to flush at the time)... Anyway, the brakepads and/or fluid combo was great at the track, I shaved 2 seconds off my previous best time and it felt great the whole day, never faded! But then, just like the last track event with all-stock ITR pads/fluid, today my brakes are mushy and don't have that wonderful bite to them any more.

Okay, the reason I said all that on this thread was this - I watched the mechanic start the flushing process before I had to leave and I noticed after he put the bleeder hose on the nipple, he pumped the brakes multiple times instead of doing it the way described above. Is it possible some air got into the brake lines during this flush? Or is it possible I actually boiled that SynPower fluid on the track? I was doing 100mph to 25mph braking in some hairpins. If I just boiled it, is this just something I'm going to have to live with, having to flush/bleed (which?) after each event, or do I need something like Motul 600? Is there a possibility I just toasted my pads? Surely not.

any help greatly appreciated. ....oh yeah, those stupid shims on the Hawks almost came off, they were melted when I pulled my pads to inspect them this afternoon. Is that any indication to how much wear I put on the brakes this weekend, or is that normal? I removed them either way...




[Modified by uncleben, 10:06 AM 6/25/2002]

 

copy'n'pasted from the other thread where 4wdrift replied and said:
That's what I was afraid of, that the guy didn't do it right. I wish I had done it myself but I was unsure of the process and was out of time. Damnit I need to just buy the f'in Helms manual for 70 bucks. And looking back I didn't really get on the brakes around town before the track session like I had been after I got my new pads and was eagerly "testing" them out. So maybe they already had air in them and were mushy and I didn't notice, not sure.

Either way, what's the next step here guys? How do I tell if I toasted my Hawk HP Plus pads? And should I just go ahead and completely re-flush with new fluid? Is it possible I really boiled the fluid? I don't really recall any fade, maybe a TINY bit, though I *was* doing 100mph to 25mph under heavy braking in some hairpins.

 

On a Honda, if you shove the pedal to the floor with a bleeder screw open, won't that shove the master cylinder piston seal well beyond its normal travel and into the dirty and possibly corroded portion, cutting the seal and subsequently killing the MC?

 

anyone want to chime in here? puhlease?

 

up

 

Hey Ben, how are you liking your R on the track?

As for bleeding the brakes, I use the time-old 2-man bleeding system, one on the brake pedal, and the other at the bleeder valve. Here's the sequence. Pump pump pump, pump (a couple of times) hold, open valve, pedal goes down, close valve before fluid stops coming out, pump pump pump, and so on. The tube coming out of the bleeder valve needs to be submerged in brake fluid, or else attached to a bleeder bag, or else air can get sucked back into the lines. I've never had a problem doing it this way.

It sounds like you may have toasted your pads. I toasted my hp+'s at Gingerman at the end of the second day, and didn't have ANY firmness in the pedal until I drove around for a while and burned the "film" off the pads. My brakes were so mushy, I was afraid of driving back to the hotel from the track. You may be able to burn off the film over time, but they may not grip as well as they once did.

On the hp+'s, don't use the shims. They tend to slide off and cut into your rotor. There's no need to have them on the car.

If you're not busy on 7/20-21, I'll need another R to keep me company at the HPCCC at Topeka, so let me know if you're interested in running at Heartland Park. It's a pretty fun track if you don't mind the drive to Topeka (1 hour west of my house in KC). There're a lot of mustangs and subarus at these events, and I could use a hand opening up the cans of whoop ***.

 

loving it! except if this is going to be the way it goes every time, it's going to get really expensive

I'm going to do this as soon as my Motul 600 gets here.

How do you "toast" the pad? There is tons of pad left, can the surface just be sanded down or something? Otherwise, like I said, this is going to get expensive, because although my brakes are fine for the street, it sucks that they lost that awesome bite and quick grip they had just days before. Stopping distance has been shortened in half I'd say.

yup they're gone now!
i'm writing you about the HPT event also...

surely something I can do besides flushing with fresh fluid to get my brake feel back. this blows

 

get some dedicated track pads and a new set of street pads

 

bah! can't I just have every thing my way?? heh, I know, this is probably a good idea, but if I've "toasted" my Hawks, which still no one has explained to me how that works.... why would I want to ever use a set of pads more than one event??

 

By toasting your pads, I mean you may have blistered them. When hp+'s (and other pads) get too hot, they can blister, which creates a film on the surface of the pad that does not create nearly the same friction as the pad material itself. By daily-driving your pads, this film should pretty much wear off. Sanding will probably get it off also, but I have not tried that myself.

When you do finally get that film off your pads, they will work well again. But for some reason, my hp+'s never regained their original "bite." While you're at it, clean your rotors off with some brake cleaner. Unless you warped them (unlikely), you'll be good to go.

 

THis is a puzzling problem for me as well. Motul 600 is not going to cure the problem.

I currently use Motul 600 (and have been for 2 years), SMC SS lines, Porterfield R4's and Brembo rotors. I recently switched to a prototype race pad from OMP - but still have the mushy brake problem. Bedding the pads properly every time on new rotors still doesn't seem to cure the problem.

A couple of cars that go to the shop I go to have had the same problem and replaced their MC's in an effort to cure this ongoing problem. I'm not sure whether the master cylinder is the culprit in my car....but I suspect it is.

The only other issue I think needs to be addressed is brake cooling - which is something I plan to work on SOON.

 

gotchya

will do...

and I got your IM's about Heartland Park Topeka, I'm very interested, I'll check out the KC scca site further when I get home, hopefully there is online registration or a form. Any other HT-er's local to the Kansas area want to join us??

 

not so much hoping the fluid would help as a good flush in case any fluid was boiled, and wanted to go ahead and get to some good fluid I'd used on my previous car and had good luck with (on the track)

Did if fix their problem? And how would the MC have developed a problem? My R only has 15k miles too. (Black Dragon is freakin if he read that, haha, 2k miles a month since purchase!)[/QUOTE]

 

I have not only flushed - but completely replaced the fluid in an effort to get rid of the mushiness - immediately following the replacement - the brakes still don't feel really firm. So maybe its a pad+rotor+fluid+MC problem.

And yes - the braking problems in the two other type R's were resolved through replacement of the MC (Victor Penner was one of the owners)

I am in the process of getting the LHT MC brace - I am curious to see if this will help remedy this unusual trait of the Type R.

 

Not so unusual- I am currently dealing with the same problem on my del Sol. Only I replaced the MC and still have mushy brakes. All parts are new except the rotors: brake pads, SS lines, fluid, calipers and MC.

I believe that my new MC may be bad, have one on order, will see what happens.

 

Hey Phat Bastard, if you're working on brake ducting, I'd be interested to see what you've come up with. My project this weekend is running some brake ducts out of the turn signals. I can't decide whether to keep the dust shields (for a mounting point for the ducting), or cut them off all the way. I'd like to hear your ideas.

 

i had the same mushiness that phat B described. No amount of bleeding and changing pads helped the mushiness. I probably should have tried ducting, but I got so fed up w/ the stock brakes that I just put on a set of Stop Tech big brake kit. The viper and WRX guys seem to have good results w/ this kit, so i'll see how much it will help the ITR braking in two weeks at the next nasa event in the socal desert.

yshi - who'll be braking harder than ever - hopefully....

 

At this point - i have not ruled out cutting the front bumper to make ducting - just below the turn signals. I figure since i'm cutting into the dash to install my roll cage that there is no turning back now.

Here is an example of what I would like to do for the ducting.....