OK, I have wanted to pose this question for some time now, but didnt want to seem so behind the times. What is the deal with coilovers? To me they just seem like a device that will allow you to raise the car up, or "slam" it. Most of the people on this board turn to these devices to improve handling while improving the stance of the car. It would seem to me that these things suck for a few reasons. 1. There is no proper set up from the factory. what I mean by this is that once you have these contraptions installed you have to manuely adjust them to whatever ride high you want the car to be at. this poses a few problems, how do you get all 4 corners even? What ride height is optimal so that you dont have a car that handels worse that when you started? 2. To many damn parts to rust out, and break. Rule of thumb - More peices to a device, quicker device goes to hell. 3. After you go through all the trouble to get the car balanced right, why the hell would you want to screw it up and adjust it again? Isnt this the biggest selling point of coilovers, the adjustability? I dont believe that you want a Type R monster IE jacked up. It would seem to me that the Type R has fantastic handling prowess direct from the factory, this being said why would you want some jack *** down at the local shade tree mechanic shop screwing with that? I think that some of you are very competent mechanics, but the people who came up with this suspension are serious professionals IE they KNOW their ****. The guys in japan have fogotten more about suspension details than many of use could dream up in a liftime. On the flipside, some tuners out there are very good from what I have heard and are getting results, Spoon, Comptech, Jun, Mugen just to name a few. Why dont you just buy springs and upgraded adjustable shocks? They come from people who know their ****. They are preset at the factory so all you have to do is put them in and instant gradification. You could purchase adjustable shocks, the adjustments are simple and easy to follow, turn this way for stiff, that way for not stiff. These are my thoughts, I would like for someone to explain the logic behind coilovers to me because right now it seem to me that they are a waste of money and hyped up by industry leaders so that it would be the "in" thing to have them, kinda like these kids with the Tommy Hilfiger shirts. Thanks if advance.

 

I am sorry, but I didn't read your post (just too much info jammed together ). But, I hope the following answers your questions:

Coilovers are really fully utilized on the racetrack. With coilovers you can corner weight your car. Basically this means you can change the weight distribution of your car by changing the heights of the coil-overs. It is not a drastic change, like throwing 30% of the weight around. But, it is enough to either make the car handle great or horrible.

On the street coilovers are kinda overkill. You can get a great suspension set up with an adjustable perch (usually two different settings), great springs and shocks.

 

so basicly what you are saying is they are worthless on the street because every road is different so what is good for ripping down the back streach at Sebring is not good for ripping down 4th street. Your car will always be unbalanced by the settings that you apply. Seems to me that this modification is just for looks and the ability to say I have coilovers while wearing a Tommy Hilfiger shirt. Am I wrong? I think a stiffer spring and shock combo would yeald better street preformance. I can see by your explination how coilovers would benifit me if I owned RealTime Racing, but I dont, so what I am concluding is that coilovers are for professionals only right?

 

What is the deal with coilovers?

Coilovers essentially amount to a high performance matched set of dampers and springs. The springs are usually of a higher spring rate. The dampers are usually single or double adjustable for compression and rebound. In addition to this, perch height can be adjusted up or down to raise/lower the body in relation to the wheels. People usually lower their cars to lower the center of gravity (Cg) and improve handling at the expense of suspension travel. The damper design will take into account the shorter range of suspension travel and have a damper that can not only handle the higher spring rates but also the shorter stroke.

The best part of coilovers is their adjustability - especially when corner weighting the car. Cornerweighting is most easily accomplished with an adjustable coil-over spring suspension because modifications are easiy and it greatly improves the handling characteristics of the vehicle (removes imbalances).

Most coilovers are made of aluminum bodies - so corrosion is not a major concern unless you drive in the winter and they spread salt on the roads. The lighter weight afforded by the aluminum construction will also help in reducing unsprung weight of the car - thereby improving transient response.

The "setup" that is provided from the factory is kind of "best of both worlds" attempt at mixing performance with ride quality. Ever had a ride in a real race car? It's not what you would call Cadillac smooth. Suspension engineers think of many factors when tuning a suspension - a lot of which depends on the target market of the vehicle and ultimately the cost of the vehicle. But most - even "sports" cars have relatively soft spring rates but the reason they do this is to improve ride quality on rutted roads, reduce the chance of suspension damage and to reduce noise and vibration.

Read these articles too:

http://www.grmotorsports.com/shockstech.html

http://www.grmotorsports.com/shocks.html

Summary: A well-tuned high performance suspension is the BEST modification you can do to your car.


[Modified by Phat Bastard, 8:13 PM 6/24/2002]

 

Phat Bastard sounds like he knows his stuff. By that explination I know I have absolutly no business with coilovers. I dont have the time or the patients to work out all of the adjustments. I wonder. Would a good set of springs and shocks acomplish virtually the same thing with half the cost and effort? I know by your post that the spring/shock combo would not be as good as the coilovers because of the lack of adjusablility to the enviroment in which the car is to be run, but for street applications, wouldnt it work roughly the same? I can now definatly see a reason for these contraptions for race aplications where there is time to dial in a proper suspension setting, but if you are not using these coilovers for full out wheel to wheel or serious professional autocross racing, but just for street use and the ocasional local autox, it seems like a waste of money and complete overkill. Do I have the right idea? I hope im not insulting people on this board, I know a lot of people have these things, and I dont think most of them are pro racers. I just want to understand fully what and why these things are.


[Modified by JSITR, 4:14 AM 6/25/2002]

 

If you buy a set of perfomance set of aftermarket shocks, and a dedicated set of "sport" springs - you can do wonders to the handling of the car - but you can also worsen it by selecting the wrong components. I suppose the real answer to your question depends on 1) how much you want to spend and 2) how much time you want to spend on adjusting it to your satisfaction.

A coilover setup DOES NOT have to be "expensive". Most amateur racers DON'T use the hyped up JDM coilovers because you can essentially create the same thing if you mix and match your parts carefully. e.g. Bilstein Sport dampers + Eibach ERS springs and Ground Control coilover sleeves = coilover for less than $1K.

 

I dont want to change my suspension at all. I cant outdrive the car, so I dont see the reasoning for spending money on a level of suspension that I cant even use. The money would be better spend at a driving school. I just wanted to know what all the fuss is about. I one day would mabey like to make a suspension change for the better, but I want a plug and play alternitive. I am not a "tuner" I dont tune. I have a degree in electronic engineering, not automotive so I know my limitations and if I am spending the big bucks on modifications, I dont want to "tune" it. I just want to install and get results. I am a realist and realize that this is just not possible, but the easier, the better. Thanks for the previous info by the way.

 

driving lessons at an HPDE are your best start. there you can talk and learn from various people interested in doing the same thing you are. don't believe everything you hear - but listen to everybody.

once you have a couple of hpde's under your belt you will start to understand many of the concepts involved in chassis tuning.

a lot of people find tuning/tinkering FUN. you obviously just want to show up and drive.....nothing wrong with that. if that is the case - leave your car stock and drive the crap out of it. you will still learn lots and have lots and lots of fun.

 

That sums it up pretty much for you I guess. There are a lot of us hear that like to tune. And a lot of us who take our cars to track events and auto-x's and drive the car near/past its limits.

We can play with the suspension settings there and see what a difference it makes in the stability of our cars.

On the same token, you will never learn if you dont tinker.

Seems to me that you should just learn to drive your car the way it is now. Then once you start to learn the limitations of your car and yourself, you can then look for improvements from changes.

 

I am not looking to make any changes to the car. I just wanted to know exactly what all the hype was about and if the coilover really were worth it, and from what I have heard they are to professional race teams and semi pro racers. I can tune, but with the Type R, the car feels like it is on a razor sharp edge of prefection and for me to go into it and tinker with it is asking for trouble. When I say tune, I mean adjusting setting on coilovers, I dont mean that I cant change my own oil. I am very competent when it comes to cars in general, but I feel I lack the skills and confidence needed to play with coilover settings and find what works best. I have read on NSXfiles.com that a suspension guy is worth his weight in gold, which tells me that its not easy to get right, but easy to screw it up.

 

This is all great info. Ive also been looking for a good suspension setup for my car but I havnt been able to decide if coilovers are necessary or worth the "tinkering" time. Isnt it also true that a proper alignment must be done every time you adjust the height of your car? That point alone has me leaning towards a regular spring and shock combo.

 

Yes its true that you "should" align your car everytime you change hieghts....

But honestly. Just because you have adjustable height, doesn't mean you have to adjust it every other day. The whole advantage is that when you buy standard springs, you ride at the height determined by the spring (or a slightly adjustable spring perch on some shocks), now when you have coilovers (of any kind) you can adjust the ride height to EXACTLY where you want it. Then get your alignment.

So the only difference is that you CAN adjust it. Doesn't mean you HAVE to adjust it

 

The real problem with a 'regular shock and spring combo' is that the springs and shocks are very unlikely to be matched to each other or to the car. With a preassembled coilover setup from a decent manufacturer, you can assume that they have tuned the shocks and springs to work together and with the car.

Height adjustability and shock damping adjustability is nice but the real advantage is knowing that parts were actually designed to work together.

The reality is that most aftermarket springs are designed with the primary goal of lowering a car by a particular amount. Many aftermarket springs will negatively effect the handling of a Type-R because they have a strong front stiffness bias, which causes understeer. The Type-R has equal final rates front and rear (well, the rears are progressive), which is one of the reasons it handles so well. Many aftermarket spring producers will not even reveal the spring rates of their springs - which is a sure sign that those particular springs are destined for ricers and not people that actually care about how their car handles.

 

This is a good topic and one I have been thinking about recently. I currently have GAB dampers with the stock springs and I'm trying to decide on purchasing some new springs to match with the dampers or throwing them all out for a coilover setup....

Car is mostly used for autox...

 

You have exactly the right attitude. 95% of people can't drive any car, let alone a stock Type R to it's potential. It's better to tune your driving ability. Stays with you for life, transfers to other cars, and the results are much more dramatic than twiddling with a few pounds on this corner, a few pounds on that corner.

 

Thanks for the compliment, I just dont see the point of constantly modifying a car that I honestly believe 99% of us cant drive the car to its limits. I know I sure the hell cant, and I believe a lot of people around here have talked themselves into believing they are Juan Montoya or something, always with the spoon this, or the mugen that. I bet that 50% of more of all modifications didnt improve a damn thing. I might be old and just have the wrong idea about things, but I take a look at the realtime racing R's and they are pretty close to stock, with the exceptions of a racing suspension, a nsx airbox, bigger brakes and a few other odds and ends, and these guys embarrase M3's and S4's all day. Just goes to show you what the TYpe R is capable of.

 

Point taken... but the RTR ITRs are not embarassing M3s and S4s. The M3 and the S4 run in the GT class and the ITR is in the Touring Car class...

 

Pretty close to stock? Not even close.

Most people here modify their cars for power.

Bottom line, if you are content with what you have, more power to you, but you can't knock someone who isn't and mods their car, weather or not you thing it improves anything.

 

People modify their cars because the get enjoyment from it. My car has Mugen Lowdowns, 26mm front and rear Mugen anti-roll bars with 16" MF-10s with 225 width PZeros, a bunch of frame stiffening bars, and handles a lot better than stock.

Whether or not I could outdrive the stock suspension (I could not) is not really the point - my current suspension is a hell of a lot more fun and responsive and has ridiculous cornering limits. And I learned a lot about suspension theory along the way, which is actually my main kick.


[Modified by norice, 12:13 PM 6/27/2002]

 

"Whether or not I could outdrive the stock suspension (I could not) is not really the point - my current suspension is a hell of a lot more fun and responsive and has ridiculous cornering limits. And I learned a lot about suspension theory along the way, which is actually my main kick."

This statment makes alot of sence. I can understand that, learning is always good in my book, and I also like to have fun. I did not mean to sound like I was knocking you modifying guys, and I am sorry if have offended someone. I just truley didnt understand the purpose of all these modifications, but with this above post, I am starting to. I lost my head when I mentioned the S4's and the M3's, sorry about that I lost my sences for a sec. Modify on

 

If you roll a car with stock or any non-height-adjustable suspension up on a scale, it won't be balanced. Because there are too many +/- tolernances during the manufacturing process (springs, shock length, bushings, upper mounts, etc).

Height adjustable coilovers gives you one variable to change to accommodate the tolerances so that the car can be tuned perfectly balanced. Although, IMO, is not absolutely necessary to have a perfectly balanced car, it is something nice to have done if you have the time, money and resources for corner weighing.

I said it's not "absolutely necessary" is because a perfectly balanced car would still not make you the fastest guy out there. It still comes down to the driver's skill and his ability to adopt to the little imperfections on the track and his car.

 

Heres a bit o' logic...

The RealTime ITR pulls OVER 1G of latteral acceleration.
They don't use coilovers. Why should you?

 

Hey JSITR, I noticed you are from Louisville too
(I really don't have much to add to this thread )

 

The Force is strong with Wai - this guy knows how to drive.

PS - did you get all that dog hair off the passenger seat RECARO yet? I guess if anyone ever stole that seat you would have no problem proving it was yours.

 

They are using Mugen N1 spec coilovers if I recall.